Grégoire Canlorbe

Kickboxer

A conversation with Loren Avedon, for Bulletproof Action

A conversation with Loren Avedon, for Bulletproof Action

by ·

Loren Rains Avedon is an American martial artist, actor, Emmy Award winning stunt man, co-producer, action director, and second unit director. Grand Master Avedon is a 9th Dan black belt in Hapkido certified by the IHF and the WHF. GM Avedon is also a 9th Dan black belt and Grand Master in Taekwondo serving as the Secretary General of the USTF a Federation created by one of the founders of the Kukkiwon. 10th Dan Grand Master In Kon Park (Dan #303), of more than 70,000,000 Kukkiwon black belts. GM Avedon is known for his portrayal of Jake Donahue in “The King of the Kickboxers”, Scott Wylde in “No Retreat, No Surrender 2: Raging Thunder”, and Will Alexander in “No Retreat, No Surrender 3: Blood Brothers”. In Europe (Germany et al.) the movies were also titled “Karate Tiger 2, 3 and Karate Tiger 5”. These epic starring roles fulfilled his contract with Seasonal Films in Hong Kong. According to Black Belt Magazine in 1992 in the United States the movies ranked numbers four, five and six of the top 10 Martial Arts movies ever made, only surpassed by the legendary Bruce Lee.

Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you remember your collaboration with Cynthia Rothrock in No Retreat, No Surrender 2?

Loren Avedon: She was wonderful to work with, very down to earth and very kind. In the 1980s, we were both doing a lot of tournaments, and I met her as a martial artist when she was training with Master Ernie Reyes Sr. the father of Ernie Reyes jr, as part of the famous “West Coast Demo Team” many years before I saw her on the set. Most of my acting was with Max Thayer in that film but all of us collaborated beautifully, really. We still keep in touch, though of course life takes you where it takes you. Max Thayer is still a dear friend and I see him whenever I am in LA.

Grégoire Canlorbe: In terms of martial arts, how did you allow your character in No Retreat, No Surrender 2 to stand out from Kurt McKinney’s character in the first movie?

Loren Avedon: If you notice Kurt’s technique, he’s doing more crescent kicks and techniques like that rather than spinning heel kicks for example. I don’t know what his martial art background is, but they hired me based on my abilities. And honestly, I don’t want to pump myself up too much, but let’s just say they were very happy that I had all of this capability to do reactions, take a lot of punishment and do most of my own stunts. I was a good athlete. Now you have these athletes that are absolutely incredible with all kinds of creative “trickster” kicking, but that was started in the late 90s.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you stand ready to co-act one more time with your No Retreat, No Surrender family in some new sequel?

Loren Avedon: Assuredly, and I would be especially thrilled if the Blood Brothers were reunited. For, whenever Keith and I are together, everybody goes kind of crazy. Keith and I are currently putting together a film interviewing screen writers and we might have something together very soon.

Grégoire Canlorbe: The King of the Kickboxers—sometimes known as Karate Tiger 5 in Europe—is thematically similar to Kickboxer but original in its snuff film storyline.

Loren Avedon: We—Billy and I and the whole team were trying to create that experience of revenge as written by Keith Strandberg. We were focused on the “snuff film” plot. In KOTKB my much old brother is killed at the beginning of the film. In Kickboxer, the brothers are closer in age. By the way, Dennis Alexio, the gentleman who played Jean-Claude’s brother, was a good friend of mine.

Grégoire Canlorbe: The final fight is quite phenomenal. Please tell us about how it was choreographed, executed, and shot.

Loren Avedon: Billy was phenomenal to work with, and fight with. Without him, it wouldn’t be such a great picture. He is so humble. He came to me in the beginning of the film and said “Loren, this is your movie and I want to do everything I can to make it great”. The film was shot in 14 weeks and the conditions were very hard. It was hot and humid all the time in Thailand, and I got tremendously ill, several times. Billy came in 35 pounds heavier and left about 30 pounds lighter. It was so much fun though, but a lot of pain as well, all part of making a great action movie.

At the time, there was no pre-visualization, no monitors, no playback, none of that. It made the filming of the final fight more challenging, choreographing everything on the spot, but working with the best in Hong Kong they didn’t need playback, they knew immediately if we needed another take. There was a brilliant choreographer, who also grabbed the camera and shot the fight—Tony Leung Shin-Hong. He is still working in Hong Kong today as a director and action choreographer. He is the Green Dragon Master in the first IP Man.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about that movie called Los Angeles: Street Fighter also called Ninja Turf which is quite early in your acting career.

Loren Avedon: It was just kind of fun to be in a film with my Masters. We shot a lot of it sort of on the fly. We didn’t have permits. We would do it on the weekends, as Master Jun Chong and Master Philip Rhee were running the Taekwondo studio during the weak. A great example of how we got away with many shots is when we’re walking up as a gang to the actual “Fairfax” High School campus after school had let out for the day, so that’s the real Fairfax High School, and those are real students there. We just pushed them all out of the way and did the scene. Master Rhee, in the end of the film, hits me a couple times with a real wooden sword, and kicks me in the stomach, I throw my feet in the air and land face down flat a stunt commonly called a “dead man”. All I did was put some cardboard down on the alley street to cover all the disgusting trash and human feces there in that alley near “skid row” in downtown LA, where all of the drunks, drug addicts and homeless people were living on the street were before we came. It was pretty yucky in that alley, but we made a fun low budget movie.

I had been around film cameras all my life because of my mother. She was a TV commercial producer and director, and advertising creative director. She put me in many of her commercials. She knew all the big movie and TV stars, so I grew up around all of these big stars. All of her friends were, you know, my uncles, and aunts really, as my Father and Mother were never married, and my Dad had moved to Italy with his daughters by marriage, to run “Eve of Rome”, where he met his second wife Princess Luciana Pignatelli Avedon. It was martial arts that really changed my life. I needed male role models and I found them in the great Martial Artists at Jun Chong Taekwondo.

Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you think that Los Angeles has evolved since the time of Ninja Turf?

Loren Avedon: That’s a pretty sad question to answer, because Los Angeles has become less relevant in filmmaking. I just visited Los Angeles last May of 2023, and it was nice because there was recently some rain, and everything was green, as there had been such a long drought, the air was a bit fresher. But Los Angeles is, shall we say, not what it used to be. Now it’s easier to shoot in other places and with digital cameras, worldwide locations, it is far easier and cheaper to shoot great movies with the ability to move quickly, and with far less hassle. Los Angeles has become ridiculously expensive and is truthfully “shot out” which means that the locations have been used in so many movies and TV shows. Audiences know its Los Angeles. Unless you are working on a studio production which I did very often as a stunt man, stunt double. I got back into stunting so I could be a good single Father to my daughter Nicole. I was not going to let her grow up without a Father like I did. She has turned into a wonderful young lady. Daughters need their Fathers, and I was determined to be the Father I never had.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Many of those 80ties movies in the martial arts and action genres were produced by that iconic duo that are Menahem Golan and Yoram Globus. How do you assess their legacy?

Loren Avedon: Cannon Films, Golan Globus productions made all of these tremendous Chuck Norris movies. Using Israeli funding and locations in Israel. They were really instrumental in making martial arts movies outside of Hong Kong productions. It’s wonderful—I love watching those old movies. I just saw Richard Norton when flipping through the television channels last night. That was probably one of their productions. I never worked with Cannon, it wasn’t my time.

Grégoire Canlorbe: What is your take on the Ninja saga starring Scott Adkins?

Loren Avedon: I think it’s phenomenal. Scott is an amazing martial artist and a good action actor. But when you’re in the business, you become a bit more critical of things; you see things that others don’t. And the time that he had to shoot these movies is much shorter than that I had, usually about 3 weeks. The movies I am so well known for we had at least 3 1⁄2 months for principal photography.

Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you explain that unique innovativeness witnessed over the course of Asian history when it comes to martial arts?

Loren Avedon: I think it just comes down to necessity. You know, all of these weapons and things that they used were developed using farm tools, because people weren’t allowed to have swords or anything like that because of the laws preventing common people possessing weapons. Only the Emperors armies could have weapons of war. Lords, Kings or only those who could afford the expense of maintaining and army with such weapons helped keep the masses in line. Weapons were allowed only for the elite and the warrior class, devoted to their duty to protect their Kingdoms. I am so grateful most of the Chinese martial arts were preserved to some degree. It was some Army general or someone who whispered in Mao Zedong’s ear that convinced him to renounce his original plan to eliminate all martial arts and execute all Masters. Thank God that Mao eventually allowed it to become a sport instead— wushu.

I was just telling my wife the other day that I would fly to San Francisco to get videotapes of these 1970’s Chinese movies, made in Hong Kong or Taiwan because it was so entertaining to watch the choreography. In those days they would go out, as you probably know, and not have any script, just find an open field, or any place they could shoot, and figure out when they got there how to create a fight scene and to carry on with it until they had a feature length film. They just wanted it to be exciting and entertaining to watch so they could show it in the theaters. They used action to bridge the gaps between any culture because a punch in the face is a universal language. Throughout history, when we come to today, the Chinese and all Asia are still practicing martial arts. If you’ve seen on YouTube the videos of all the children practicing in China, I wish we had that in the West, honestly. We are losing one of the most important things all humans need especially growing up, discipline.

By the way, even in the 20th century, Bruce Lee got in a lot of trouble for practicing Wing Chun in San Francisco and for teaching white people, but that’s the truth. Kung Fu and the Shaolin Temple and all they do to Master an ancient art is absolutely phenomenal. I believe that Mao would not have survived as a dictator if he had destroyed the Shaolin Temple. The Chinese people would never allow that.

Grégoire Canlorbe: What about a new collaboration with the director of the two first No Retreat, No Surrender—Corey Yuen?

Loren Avedon: I believe Corey Yuen is between the U.S. and Hong Kong and working on other things. I don’t know exactly what’s going on with him, but whenever we do the new Blood Brothers, Keith and I want to hire a Chinese director assuredly. We want that ground pounding action.

Grégoire Canlorbe: What martial-arts movie do you believe could be made about the contemporary relationship between America and China? What kind of story could be told?

Loren Avedon: Throughout history, we have come to the aid of the Chinese many times, my Father included. My Father was a fighter pilot in the Navy in WW2 and the Korean war. Inside of one of his leather flight jackets is the Taiwanese flag, which of course is a disputed territory. In Chinese it reads “this is a friend of Taiwan, protect him and help him all you can” China and America are linked far more than people really know or will admit, and clearly that connection and how the Chinese know that the United States and the West have always come to their aid historically to free them from foreign occupation and allow them to be a sovereign nation. Most recently from Japanese occupation for 40+ years in WW2 is something that should be conveyed cinematically. It has been done in “Empire of the Sun”. It would be great to do a series like “The Crown” about China, but there just isn’t enough interest in doing so in the west.

Xi Jinping is a very powerful and smart leader. I hope that all of this, shall we say, South Pacific conflict, the Chinese trying to claim a little bit more of the international waters by creating man made islands, can be resolved peacefully. Because we see that the world is really kind of in turmoil now, all of this war and various things going on all around the world, such as Global Climate Change. In China we don’t really know what’s going on, because we’re given what we’re allowed to see by the media. Militarily the NSA here in the United States knows a lot more.

China has 5,000 years of history, America’s not even 250 years old. We can all learn from each other. People don’t really seem to understand that shamefully. There are almost two billion people in China while we’re only a few hundred million. We should all work together because this earth is all we have. We can destroy it many times over. I pray for the day we all come together to clean up the planet and live sustainably after 150 years of the Industrial revolution. We need to continue that relationship with China and remain allies, in spite of human rights abuses and China’s Communist regime.

The Chinese know from our history with them. The last sort of conflict that really was an issue China got involved with openly was the Korean War, which my father was a part of. He was called back into the service and trained Naval Aviators. His call sign was “Deadeye” because he was a double Ace plus. As a Commander in the Navy and was being groomed to become an Admiral. He was a top gun instructor during the Korean war, flew many missions in the war and also trained the ROK Airforce. He decided not to make the Navy his career, he’d seen so many men die in combat and didn’t want the responsibility of sending men into battle. He’d seen enough death. In WW2 the average fighter pilot was only to survive 5 missions. My Father was an amazing pilot, got his pilots license in 1936 at age 12. He had logged enough hours in flight and was granted that license at such a young age, amazing.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you sense the art of fighting when one is working as a producer willing to deliver a qualitative action movie has something to do with the art of fighting as a martial artist?

Loren Avedon: It’s about fighting with enhanced realism for me. You have to Master technique, then heighten creatively but realistically. If you see some Marial Arts movies today, they’re over-choreographed; it lacks the proper rhythm and reactions. There must be a certain time for reaction and also for a little bit of acting within the fighting. People need time to absorb what they’ve seen. I think it’s the video game generation that ruined things. A fight should be creative but more importantly believable. The Chinese were great at that and also allowed me to do as much of the action as possible. Truthfully, they demanded that.

Grégoire Canlorbe: You stood as a second unit director on Tiger Claws III, didn’t you?

Loren Avedon: Let’s just say I had to jump in every once in a while, and help. There was a cameraman and choreographer there. While Jalal was directing other things, I would take a splinter unit camera and direct my fights and some shots that were needed in other parts of that studio. He had converted a movie theater that he owned in Toronto, Canada into a studio. I think of the name of the studio/theater was “The Donlands”. His company is “Film One”.

I love to work in Canada. It’s a bit cold in Canada but people there are so friendly, it was a lot of fun. Jalal and I may be doing some things together in the near future. It’s interesting how the floodgates have opened during the pandemic, when people had to stay home the dusted off their old DVDs or Video cassettes and all of a sudden people were watching old movies. Keith Vitali just did this film with Cynthia and did a screen fight with Benny the Jet Urquides. And that’s full circle from “Wheels on Meals”. There’s a lot going on and a lot of possibilities for the future.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you have any project behind the camera?

Loren Avedon: I would like to get behind the camera more when I get back into the entire business. Because it’s a business. You have to pay back your investors and have everything under wraps. Working on a film with the Chinese was great. Having a say in the choreography as they allowed me to do when we were shooting “The King of the Kickboxers” and all my other Hong Kong movies. They would ask; “Loren, what do you think about this? What do you think about that?” That’s great because that’s the part of the process. It takes a team.

So, I would like to go back to Asia and hire a Hong Kong director to shoot, but then be there in the editing room as well. Because I’m sure you realize that the editing of the movies is a very important part of the whole process. You can shoot something phenomenal, but what I learned from them is they had the editor there on the set and he was taking notes on what takes were best etc. The assembly of the product is really important.

They’re shooting movies in twenty-one days now, I had three and a half months. The possibilities are endless when you have time. I already have several writers that are interested in penning the script if we’re to film in Asia. We’ll see. It’s all about writing for budget, and getting it done where it is really believable and exciting. You can see when it looks more like a martial arts demo which is what a lot of these movies made today look like, and when there is real contact and all of the little tricks that I’m not going to share.

Grégoire Canlorbe: To you, spirituality and martial arts have some strong connection, don’t they?

Loren Avedon: To me, martial arts are a very important part of spirituality indeed. The physical world is only what you make of it, what you interpret. So as a martial artist, it’s mind, body, and spirit every time. I always come back to the training and to the discipline of martial arts because that structure allows me to do much more than, let’s say, I would be physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually able to do otherwise. There are times where you have to be fearless. You’re scared to death, but you can’t show that nor can you let fear control you.

I don’t know who I would be or what I would be without the training and the experiences of being a dedicated martial artist learning and practicing with great Masters. Martial Arts training and practice allow you to transcend the physical. You become able to do things that most athletes cannot. The most physically demanding and athletically demanding dangerous stunts and fight choreography take after take, over and over and over again to perfection. If you watch those videos on YouTube, people breaking cinder blocks, capping blocks, bricks, huge blocks of ice, 2 x 4” wood pine against the grain, even young women, how does their petite little hand do that without their mind and their spirit, rigorous physical conditioning, and their control of the moment? Not thinking about the bricks but rather going through them. Mind over matter.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Martial arts are, it seems, is a path to the Ki or Chi and all the supernatural realm that is surrounding us.

Loren Avedon: I have taught so many thousands of martial artists and I always say that, whenever I am fighting or teaching, my Ki or Chi will change. And it will change the energy of a room, or of an entire situation. What does that come from? It’s obvious that there’s more going on than we see and that enables a Martial Artist to transcend the physical with your mind and your spirit using your body.

I did a seminar in Hawaii about Action film making. I was hired by the Big Island Film Office to put together basically a Martial Arts stunt fighting demo and also break down the fights in IP Man to show and explain martial arts in film. We didn’t get into much of the spirituality of that, but let’s just say in Hawaii like in certain other places of the world, you get that feeling that there is so much more going on than what we see. And if you don’t have that sixth sense or that ability to feel like Bruce Lee said, “don’t think, feel,” you wouldn’t be able to feel what’s going on behind the physical realm. What happens through training is you develop that sixth sense.

Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you sum up the specificities of taekwondo with other martial arts?

Loren Avedon: Olympic Taekwondo has evolved. I was very involved in taekwondo and studied many different Kwans or styles. I’ve been to the Kukkiwon many times. My Grandmaster took me all around the world. He was in charge of Taekwondo competitions by the WTF (World Tae Kwon Do Federation) and the Kukkiwon for all sanctioned competitions in Central and South America for about 10 years starting in the year 2000. Today’s Taekwondo only exists because when Korea was occupied by Japan, I think from 1904 to 1945, they had to adapt their martial arts to the Japanese way. It’s an amalgam of many things. From that came Tang Soo Do, and after WW2 when Korea was a sovereign Nation again came the development of Taekwondo, and Hapkido (from small circle) Japanese Jiujitsu.

Taekwondo now as a sport, I don’t enjoy todays Taekwondo as much the Old Olympic style of the eighties and nineties that had a 36’ x 36’ competition ring (square) with a 3’ warning track indicating when a competitor is out of bounds. Points could only be scored by a player (competitor) by hitting the opponent with “trembling shock” to the body or head or KO. These days, I rather would watch the international taekwondo, or open style karate tournaments where they’re punching, kicking, sweeping, stomping the head, doing what is necessary but in a controlled environment. I also enjoy JUDO competitions, it is exciting and is somewhat similar to the close quarters joint locks and throws of Hapkido, but without striking, or the finishing techniques of Combat Hapkido. The beauty of Taekwondo as a sport developed from the simple truth that it is too easy to punch somebody in the face, but if you could kick them in the face, or kick them in the body, or do something very acrobatic and stylish, involving beautiful footwork and dynamic kicking it was much more beautiful, exciting, and effective as a sport and Martial Art. The ancient art of Korean tae kyon developed to be modern Taekwondo. Tae Kwon Do still has the best kicking techniques of any Martial Art.

If you notice, a lot of MMA champions, including Anderson Silva, Anthony Pettis are Taekwondo stylists originally. This is because Taekwondo has great footwork. And the lack of footwork is the problem with a lot of the other martial arts, no disrespect but it’s true. If you can’t move with speed and balance you cannot win in a striking art. All great MMA fighters have mastered a traditional martial art, just think about Bruce Lee. He learned Wing Chun, which is for very close quarter fighting, but does have foot effective foot work, that is very interesting as it involves almost a pigeon toed and bent knee movement which can bridge distance at speed. Bruce Lee realized boxing and other true kicking arts required good foot work. He mimicked Muhammad Ali’s dancing and shuffling to execute his kicking techniques and close distance. Wing Chun was developed 300+ years ago by a 5’ 1” woman to defeat a 6’ tall man in close quarters.

Grégoire Canlorbe: How does the king of the kickboxers (you) assess Kickboxer?

Loren Avedon: Jean-Claude’s style was great, but I think what the movie was focusing on his learning to transcend fear and anger, pain emotional a physical by hard training and conditioning through extreme martial arts training to reach higher degree of Ki/Chi through that training and heighten your degree of consciousness and power to defeat a larger stronger opponent with things like level change, kicking techniques (jumping kicks), and low kicks to the legs and femoral nerve. Your forge steel through fire and hammering that steel to develop a lethal weapon.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Yes, the training in the stone city amidst the ancient warriors. Becoming supernatural through martial arts is a topic you can find in the first No Retreat, No Surrender as well.

Loren Avedon: You must be referring to the training with Bruce Lee’s ghost.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Indeed. Would you be intrigued by a sequel to the very first installment which would be featuring Donnie Yen as Ip Man’s ghost?

Loren Avedon: I heard there was a direct sequel to the first No Retreat, No Surrender in the works, I don’t know whether they plan to have Donnie Yen act as Ip Man’s ghost. If that’s their choice and it’s done well, not in a corny way, it will be interesting.

Honestly, I had not seen the first No Retreat, No Surrender before I went to Thailand to star in No Retreat, No Surrender 2, Raging Thunder. I had just come back with my Father from a Safari in Kenya and Tanzania, I had great experience in Africa discovering a whole new culture, that’s the beauty of travel. Mark Twain has a great quote about how travel breaks down all barriers and prejudices: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome,  charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the  earth all one’s lifetime.” 

But spirituality was the question raised about Kickboxer vs my movies in Hong Kong. There wasn’t so much spirituality in No Retreat, No Surrender 2,Raging Thunder, No Retreat, No Surrender 3, Blood Brothers. But it was introduced by the character Prang in, The King of the Kickboxers.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for your time Loren is there anything you would like to add?

Loren Avedon: Thank you for the interview. It’s nice to still be relevant and recognized for my work, and to have people that are still interested in those early Hong Kong action movies. When on Facebook there was that picture of Keith Vitali and I implying the possibility of doing another Blood Brothers, it was like an avalanche of messages and comments looking forward to that possibility. I barely got any sleep because of all of the messages, all of the people wanting to get involved. As I mentioned, we are in the process of developing a script at the moment that will star, Keith and I. It would be wonderful for the fans to see us together again, introducing a new Martial Arts star would be great if we can find one that has all the qualities required. We will be working on that aggressively very soon. After all we have 3 generations of fans now. The market for such a film is there and will be very successful.

Have you practiced any Martial Arts?

Grégoire Canlorbe: Not really. I did some Muay Thai some years ago.

Loren Avedon: Muay Thai is a hardcore striking art. I don’t like taking the leg kicks, I learned how to absorb them by training in Muay Thai. I trained in many different martial arts, because if you don’t have the complete understanding of other styles technique, you’re really missing out. And I’m still learning, that’s the beauty of it. You take yourself out of the world and put yourself into an entire other world where there is structure and discipline, and you connect with everyone while respecting their ways and their rules and their beliefs.

Look at South Korea, it’s one of the largest economies in the world though a very small area. I’m just very grateful as a Westerner to be accepted into their world and to be embraced by them and that’s the beautiful thing. You can bridge so many gaps, language barriers, or anything with sport. And martial arts and taekwondo, whether it’s the Olympic style or old- school hardcore knock’em out drag’em out Karate, is where you’re able to learn about yourself and to be able to engage with others without having to ever be violent. Because it’s not about violence, it’s about developing your mind body and spirit and living your life the Martial way, with honor.

That interview was initially published on Bulletproof Action, in February 2024

A conversation with Michael Bornhütter, for Bulletproof Action

A conversation with Michael Bornhütter, for Bulletproof Action

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Michael Bornhütter is a German sensei, stuntman, fight/stunt coordinator, and actor. He is notably known for The Saint: Wrong Number, The Bourne Ultimatum, V for Vendetta, and The Matrix Resurrections. He won a Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Action Performance by a Stunt Ensemble in a Motion Picture for The Bourne Ultimatum; what’s more, he was nominated for a Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Action Performance by a Stunt Ensemble in a Motion Picture for The Matrix Resurrections.

  Bornhütter is involved as a fight/stunt coordinator, fight choreographer, and martial arts/stunt teacher with Movision Movement, a Berlin based “stunt team & community of actors and stunt performers specializing in martial arts, fight design & movement preparation/training of lead actors.”

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about Movision Movement. How was the company born, and what are its ambitions?

  Michael Bornhütter: I think Movision Movement was born through Manu [Manuel Werling] and Anna [Anna-Jorinde Pursche] because they both love movement, and both are excellent artists and martial artists. The deeper meaning in the name is found in the details—Mo-vision, the vision of the movement.

   I met Manuel on a no-budget film project (Dark Net: The Beginning) that I supervised as a fight choreographer; Manu also played a scene in the film, and I liked the art and style with which he moved, so we got together and I hired him as a fight choreographer assistant for a big film project (Tribes Of Europa). Manuel was a stunt performer before and from the moment we started working together everything went great. That’s when I joined Movision Movement. I also like the idea of Movie and Vision; that is another way of understanding the name.

Michael Bornhütter (in the foreground), and Manuel Werling (in the background)

  Grégoire Canlorbe: To what extent do the task of a sensei, martial-arts mentor—and the task of a fight coordinator—relate to each other?

  Michael Bornhütter: I think it’s close. Before I started the fight and stunt choreos, I was a sensei for mixed martial arts, just for martial arts. It helped me later to choreograph the fights; it helped me to deal with people and work with them. This is great for me. It’s a different job as a martial arts sensei, but it’s very similar because you work with people and explain to them how you do things. Teaching and learning is what I love about it.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you sum up the tale of your “40 years of experience in various traditional & modern fighting styles”?

  Michael Bornhütter: My journey began at the age of 12; that’s when I learned traditional fighting styles. I later started stunt training, in the 80s; times were different in this area. In 2000 I worked with Donnie Yen and learned film martial arts, which is completely different from reality. Because it’s unreal; there’s a short real part in the fight, but you could never use that on the street. I learned a soldier’s way of handling weapons, all weapons and knives; I was taught a soldier’s tactical drills. I learned all of this even before I was a stuntman; for, when I started martial arts, I had a sensei who unusually taught me a lot of weapons. He said all martial arts are good and so I learned how to use Sai and Tonfa [a weapon from Kobudo and Ju-Jitsu], and many other weapons and fighting styles like those I would make use of as a stunt and movie fighter.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: So, you’re experienced as much with firearms as with fencing, archery, and knife throwing.

  Michael Bornhütter: I remember The Three Musketeers [Paul W.S. Anderson’s version]; that was super crazy. We shot in 3D and everything had to be much more precise because the focus is much closer than in 2D; that means we had to be much more precise with the weapons. It made everything more complicated, but also more interesting. You can fake a lot of things—knife throwing and things like those in your question—under the camera; you can also do a lot of tricks when editing. But faking is a little more difficult in 3D.

Michael Bornhütter, Hamudi Ahmad, and Manuel Werling (from the right to the left)

  Grégoire Canlorbe: I believe one of your skills as a stuntman is also driving stunt.

  Michael Bornhütter: I’m not a very good precision driver, but I’ve had experience with precision driver things and have driven a lot of vehicles. There are people who drive much better than me, whom I would entrust with tasks such as getting involved with a car race in a parking without anything happening to the vehicle he is driving, or doing a precision drive on an actor and stopping just before hitting him.

  I do those things though; I also do things like a U turn. It’s all a matter of practice; you can learn all of that, it has a lot to do with what people want to specialize in. Car stunt has a lot to do with technical standards: if the car is to jump from a ramp, explode, or roll over, it has to be prepared adequately. That means you don’t just need someone who can drive; you also need someone with all the necessary know-how. I know all that, I was there a lot; but I always try to get away from those things, that’s not my stuff really.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you assess Nicolas Winding Refn’s Drive featuring Ryan Gosling in the role of a Hollywood stunt driver?

  Michael Bornhütter: I think the film is very good. There’s always a little bit of truth in a film, but it’s a romantic idea. There’s another old film that’s pretty cool related to it too, which I think is called Driver [Walter Hill’s Driver featuring Ryan O’Neal]; but of course that has nothing to do with reality either. From a cinematic point of view, Drive is awesome, with very good driving, and very good stunt driving, which, I have to say, are very well shot.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: When it comes to the way stuntmen are solicited, used, and treated in the Hong Kong movie industry, do you notice some significant difference with the way they are solicited, used, and treated in Hollywood?

  Michael Bornhütter: I got into Hollywood films relatively early: at the end of the 80s, while the wall was still in Berlin, I was a stuntman on a Hollywood film with Gene Hackman [Company Business], part of which was shot in Berlin. It was a film about the Cold War; before it was over and was supposed to hit theaters, the wall fell, that’s why the Americans withheld the film. When the wall fell, things moved on pretty quickly: a Hollywood film with Michael Douglas and Melanie Griffith [Shining Through] was made here in Berlin. In the beginning it was like you only ever worked with the Americans when they came here; that changed quite a bit in the 2010s, with the possibility offered to many German stunt people that they work in America once they’ve entered the SAG-AFTRA.

  I worked with the Chinese for the first time in 2000; I was the German stunt coordinator on a series [Der Puma – Kämpfer mit Herz] with which Donnie Yen was involved as an action unit director. I was a part of Donnie’s team, and did the casting of all the German fighters; I also worked on some choreos with Kenji [Kenji Tanigaki]. Initially it wasn’t possible to work in Hong Kong, as the Chinese weren’t really interested in working with Europeans. It is now the case that many German stunt people are brought to Hong Kong or India, and filming there; but I think it is only ten or fifteen years ago that they were offered that possibility. The whole thing has become more global, which was actually kickstarted by Jackie Chan; he worked in America himself, and inspired other Chinese movie fighters (like Jet Li, and Donnie Yen) to do the same. He did a lot to have people from all countries collaborate with each other in Hong Kong, and elsewhere.

  Here is a “significant difference” I see between the Americans, the Germans, and the Chinese when it comes to stunt and movie fighting. The Americans do everything with a lot of money, and with a lot of technology and people; the Chinese do everything with a lot of tricks and try to do the job with less equipment, less money, and less people but with effective things and ideas. And we Germans are somewhere in between.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: You were involved with Matrix Resurrections as a stunt performer, and nominated by the Screen Actors Guild Awards for outstanding performance by a stunt ensemble in that framework. How do you remember the experience?

  Michael Bornhütter: For me it wasn’t as exciting as it might have been for the younger people, as I made a lot of films like that before. It was nice to see Keanu Reeves and Carrie-Anne Moss though. I’ve known, and worked for, the director who made the film for a long time, and I actually got the job through her. I got to know the Wachowski sisters on V for Vendetta; that was the first time I worked with them, and I thought they were great and got along well with them. On Cloud Atlas I did the fight choreography for the two of them; on Matrix: Resurrections I was a stunt performer for Lana Wachowski, her sister Lilly was no longer on board. The work was okay for me. I knew all the stuntmen; we did a lot of stunts in that scene [an explosion scene] I was in, and it was fun.

Michael Bornhütter (on the left), and Manuel Werling (on the right)

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you assess the stunt prowess of those actors—like Jean-Paul Belmondo, Jackie Chan, or Tom Cruise—doing their own stunts?

  Michael Bornhütter: Very interesting question. To an extent, young actors are all Belmondo who are fit, who are go-getter, who do a lot of their own stuff; all have to meet their physical limitations someday though. Even Jackie Chan, however fit he may continue to be nowadays, has six doubles now.

  Anyway, once you start working in America, it becomes difficult for a lead actor to do a lot of his own stunts; because if he gets injured, no insurance will pay for it. Some Hollywood actors, like Tom Cruise, do a lot of their stunts; but I don’t think some performer, even Tom Cruise, can really be covered by insurance if he says: “I will make all my stunts myself.” There are certain things Jackie Chan wouldn’t even do himself if he were still working in America; the risk is just too great that he would injure himself and then stop shooting. I know he hurt himself a few times in Hong Kong on Hong Kong productions; but it’s handled differently there. The man is put in plaster, then the plaster is painted on and then he continues.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: David Worth’s Kickboxer enjoys everlasting fame and popularity alongside martial artists, stuntmen, and the public at large. How do you feel about it?

  Michael Bornhütter: I find that film to be pretty good. It’s like the other movie with Ryan Gosling: it’s just fiction, a romantic idea. There has to be a story, and the fights have to be choreographed in such a way that whoever is supposed to win wins; that means, of course, like in Rocky, you don’t see a real failure. If a boxer had to analyze the Rocky films, he would laugh his head off at how the fight goes in there; everyone still likes the fights and it’s great.

  One reason why Kickboxer has been so popular in the stunt profession may be that it was released at a time when a new generation of stunt people in Germany—we were just mesmerized by all those Jackie Chan movies—was trying to bring that Hong Kong spirit to the German movies, and to fight differently than what was expected from us at the time. I remember I was told then somehow: “Hey, this looks too much like martial arts, don’t do it;” but there were no fight choreographers in the 80s and 90s. The director said somehow: “Show them how to do the scene,” and it wasn’t called fight choreographer; that only came out in 2000 or at the end of the 90s. Anyway we could identify to the way those fights in Kickboxer were choreographed and shot, in a Hong Kong vein; but, of course, Kickboxer also contributed to making martial arts in movie increasingly popular alongside the German public at large.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for your time. Please feel free to add anything.

  Michael Bornhütter: There are some prizes I received; but for me it’s more important to do some nice work, I don’t need a nomination really.

  Transcribers: Davide Daniele Jakubowski;
& Grégoire Canlorbe with the help of Sonix AI

That conversation was originally published by Bulletproof Action, on 20 September 2022

A conversation with David Worth, for Bulletproof Action

A conversation with David Worth, for Bulletproof Action

by ·

David Worth is an American director of photography and film director. He contributed as cinematographer to more than twenty films, including Bloodsport, Any Which Way You Can, and Bronco Billy. He directed movies such as Warrior of the Lost World (which he also wrote), Lady Dragon, Hard Knocks, and Kickboxer.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: In Warrior of the Lost World, a 1983 Italian production,you had the honor to direct legendary actor Donald Pleasence [Dr Loomis in the Halloween saga]. How do you remember this collaboration?

  David Worth: I was very honored to work with a gentleman, with the acting acumen and the acting skills of Donald Pleasence, who had been in so many great films. He was in the original Dr. No, he was in Halloween. He was in a great film by Roman Polanski. I’m trying to remember the name of that one. He was in the film The Great Escape with Steve McQueen. He’s truly a great, great, great actor! So I was very pleased to work with him. He was only there for a week of our short schedule, doing his part as Prossor, but he was very prepared, very intense. He even insisted that Persis Khambatta spit in his face for real when it was required for the scene, even though we could have faked it because it was done in cuts. But he insisted that Persis spit in his face to motivate him as Prossor, and I thought that was extraordinary! Mr. Pleasence was a very brilliant gentleman to work with.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What is your view, generally speaking, of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s Italian “genre movie,” i.e., giallo, cannibal film, and postapocalyptic? And of movie-directors such as Lamberto Bava, Dario Argento, Umberto Lenzi, and Ruggero Deodato?

  David Worth: Dario Argento’s work, I know very well, as well as his daughter’s, Asia Argento. I know their work very well. The others I don’t know because I was never a follower of many of the post-apocalyptic films. Any of the cannibal films, I don’t really know those works. But Dario Argento, I thought, was a fine filmmaker, and he made a lot of very interesting, horrific films in the ’70s and ’80s.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Shark Attack 2 is notoriously better—and much more generous in terms of “shark attacks”—than its predecessor. How did you manage to save that saga that started so poorly?

  David Worth: The late, great producer at New Image, Danny Lerner, I had known him for 10 years, and he gave me the script for Shark Attack 2 and asked me to go to Cape Town in South Africa to make it. When I looked at the first Shark Attack, I realized it was a problem because it’s called Shark Attack, but there are virtually no shark attacks in the movie. So from doing second unit work with the great second unit director Glenn Randall and from being a cinematographer and editor for many years, I knew that we needed a lot of pieces to make a shark attack work. So I began to break apart the sequences and analyze what I needed, and I needed several things. First, I needed a real dummy shark, 25 or 30 feet long, that could be towed with a jet ski to go right by the boats, so we could see the size of it. Then, I needed several biting heads, big biting heads that could be operated by stunt divers, and that we could bite the actors with. Then, I needed fins that could be seen on top of the water, that could be driven by stunt actors, stunt divers so that I could have the shark turning left or right or attacking. And then, I also used a lot of real shark stock footage. I used real shark stock footage swimming toward the camera, going left, going right. Then, I would use the pieces that I invented to tie the story together, and we it made it work very, very well.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Were you approached to work on those other cult shark-series that are Mega Shark and Sharknado?

  David Worth: No, I was never asked. I was never approached. I wasn’t even approached when New Image did their last shark movie that Danny Lerner directed. I had done my share of shark attack movies. I liked the genre, I had fun with it, and I was ready to move on.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: The diptych formed by Lady Dragon and its sequel-remake is a climactic point in your career as a movie director. How did you get the best from Cynthia Rothrock?

  David Worth: Cynthia is still and was once one of the very best actors in martial arts. I loved her work. I loved working with her. Even though they are martial artists, they are actors first. I just had to sit her down and talk with her about the part, about her responsibilities, about her emotions. And as long as I gave it the time, she would come up with the proper emotion. The thing I remember most about Cynthia is, we were working in Indonesia. There was no craft service. There was no place to go to the bathroom. I said, “Where’s the bathroom?” They pointed out there. That tree, that’s the bathroom. She was tough. She had been trained in Hong Kong Action! Cynthia started her career there in Hong Kong where they treat stuntmen like disposable cups. They just go through them. And she was really quite brilliant to work with, Cindy was out there every single day in the heat and the dust and the dirt, doing all the kicks and all her own stunt work. I continue to admire her so very much and would be thrilled to work with her again…

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Would you be ready to direct a third installment in the Lady Dragon saga, starring Rothrock again?

  David Worth: I already have a part three for Lady Dragon. If she’s ready, I’m ready to do it anytime. I have the script. Unfortunately, no one’s interested. They say that Cynthia and I are too old… But I’m ready and I know Cynthia is ready. She’s beautiful. She’s still in shape and still beautiful. I see her on Facebook & Instagram every day.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Your work as a cinematographer on Bloodsport is never so moving, impactful, as in those scenes featuring an alone Jean-Claude Van Damme strolling, meditating, and training in Hong Kong with Stan Bush’s song, “On My Own,” as a background score. Please tell us about the creative process behind such images.

  David Worth: Bloodsport was a very unique film to be part of. I was at the right place at the right time. Jean-Claude was at the right place at the right time. Everything came together in Hong Kong. We were the smallest film done by Cannon films that year. They were busy doing big $20 and $30 million movies, and we had a little two and a half… $2,300,000 movie in Hong Kong. Nobody paid attention to us. Jean-Claude was at the beginning of his career, and again, he was an actor first. So, he was ready and willing to do anything and everything to show his acting talent, as well as his martial arts. We captured all the footage we needed of him, and then later in post-production, we found the right song to use to help the mood of that scene, which turned out very, very well. He was brilliant and still is a brilliant martial artist and actor.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about the filming of that scene with Jean-Claude Van Damme overhanging the city like a demigod contemplating Greece from the summit of Olympus?

  David Worth: When he’s up on the top of the hill with his legs spread over looking the whole city? We took a tram all the way up to the top with all our equipment and lined it up so that we could get that shot. It wasn’t easy. But everyone in Hong Kong was willing to help out and help us to make a good film. We had a great Hong Kong producer named Charles Wang at Salon Films, who was actually the godfather to my son, David, and a great man. And he’s not with us any longer. But he was so helpful in getting both Bloodsport and Kickboxer made with the best possible crew and the best possible Panavision equipment on the planet.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Did JCVD and Michel Qissi contribute to the movie’s filming at another level than their acting (respectively as Kurt Sloane and as Tong Po)?

  David Worth: They did because they were both martial artists. Jean-Claude mostly did the choreography. He did most of the choreography for all of the fights because that’s his area of expertise, and I encouraged him to do it. Michel was the very, very bad man, Tong Po, in that movie. He’s a sweet man. He’s very gentle. He’s a real gentleman. But in that movie, he played a very evil man, Tong Po.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How did Mark DiSalle exactly contribute to Kickboxer’s directing?

  David Worth: I was hired as the director for Kickboxer. I supervised the casting. I polished the script. I storyboarded the entire production. I was there for every “action and cut.” I supervised all of the fights. Now, Jean-Claude was very influential in choreographing all of the fights because that was his area of expertise. But I did all the work of the director, and then Mark DiSalle decided to share my credit just before the film was finished in post-production.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you react to the surge of sequels or remakes that Kickboxer or Bloodsport would inspire?

  David Worth: First of all, I’m thrilled when anyone can make any film, any time. But I think with Bloodsport and Kickboxer, it’s very difficult to capture the enthusiasm and the camaraderie and the collaboration and the performances and the locations, especially in Hong Kong and Bangkok, that we had when we did Bloodsport and Kickboxer. I know there have been many sequels. I wasn’t involved in any of them. I don’t think they captured what we were able to capture with the original. They may have been much more expensive, but they didn’t have the heart and soul that our films had.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: As a cinematographer you collaborated twice with Clint Eastwood. Namely in Clint Eastwood’s Bronco Billy and in Buddy Van Horn’s Any Which Way You Can, both starring Eastwood and his then girlfriend and muse Sondra Locke. Quite a fantastic story! How do you sum it up?

  David Worth: This is a very long and detailed question. It would take me an hour to discuss that. I will give you the short version. If you want to see the long version, go to www.amazon.com and order my book Zen & The Art Of Independent Filmmaking. All my filmmaking is in that book. In those hundreds of pages, I go through all my films in detail.

  Working with Clint Eastwood happened because of one person, Sondra Locke. I did a little film called Death Game, starring Sondra Locke, Seymour Cassel, and Colleen Camp. After that film had been filming for a week, the director fired the cinematographer, and the producer called me to see if I wanted to take it over. I didn’t want to inherit someone else’s mess, so I asked, “Who’s starring?” When he said, “Sondra Locke, Seymour Cassel, and Colleen Camp”, I said, “Okay, I’m in.” Because I knew Sondra’s work. Sondra had gotten an academy nomination for Heart Is a Lonely Hunter on her first film. Seymour had been nominated for an academy award on John Cassavetes’ film Faces. So I was in. It was a very small production. We only had 13 days to finish what was left to film. Now, they were also shooting wide-screen, anamorphic Panavision. This was my first time using it. I discovered the Panavision camera… even though it was big… it was very ergonomically correct, so I could hand-hold it with no problem. I decided to save time in the production by not using the camera on a tripod, but instead handholding it. I handhold 75 or 85% of that film. We would be sitting in dailies, and I’d say… it would be a closeup of Sondra… and I’d say, “That’s a handhold shot,” and the director, he’d say, “No, it’s not.” I’d say, “Watch it.” Then on screen he would say, “Cut!”, and the camera would go all over the place. That’s how we made it through. It was very long days, but we got it all done.

  Sondra, Seymour and Colleen were brilliant. They did a great job. Seymour and the producer had a falling out, and he never came in to do the dubbing. So I ended up having to dub his voice. The film was being edited by someone who did not appreciate the material, and after 6 or 8 weeks the director, Peter Traynor, called Sondra and I to see a screening of a rough cut… It Was Awful. It was horrendous. Sondra was sitting like this the whole time, with her head down, she couldn’t even look at it. During the screening, I kept shouting, “Where’s this shot?”, “Where’s this shot?”, “Where’s this shot?” Finally, after the screening was over, I had the director, take Sandra and me to the editing room, where I was able to find the shots and fix several of the scenes to show him how they hadn’t been cut correctly. So Peter fired the editor and I became the cinematographer and editor on Death Game and finished it professionally. Sondra had asked me, “Please finish this film so I can be proud of it,” and I did. As we know, Sondra went from that film to The Outlaw Josey Wales with Clint Eastwood, and began a 15-year relationship… That was how I got to Clint, because Sondra began nudging Clint about my work.

  A couple of years down the road, Sondra and Clint did the film The Gauntlet. It was just those two, Sondra and Clint, up on the big screen, one-on-one. After I’d seen the film, I called her and said, “I’m so proud of you up there, co-starring with Clint”, giving him all he could handle as the actor. I said, “It was a great job.” She said, “Yeah, we had a great time.” But he had a big fight with his cinematographer because he wouldn’t shoot by campfire light. I said, “What? I just shot a whole off-road motorcycle movie by campfire light.” Then Sondra asked me a question, that would change my life as a cinematographer. She said, “You wouldn’t happen to have a reel of that you could drop off for Clint to see, would you?” I said, “Yes, I would.” That’s how Clint saw my work. A couple of years later, he saw more of my work. And that’s how I eventually did Bronco Billy. But it was a long process. It took several years for it to happen.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Boxing, mentorship, and tetraplegia are topics common to your Kickboxer and to Clint Eastwood’s Million Dollar Baby. How do you assess the way those topics are treated in Clint Eastwood’s movie?

  David Worth: The only one I really relate to… I don’t relate to boxing, I don’t relate to the medical condition, I do relate to mentoring. We all need mentors, and that film was basically about an old trainer who took this young lady and mentored her into becoming a championship boxer. I relate to that because I had two great mentors in my life that helped me in my cinematography and in lighting and directing, and they were Stanley Kubrick and Clint Eastwood.

  Stanley Kubrick, I was able to use him to mentor me because when I was editing Death Game… during the Post-Production of Death Game, I managed to get my hands on a 35-millimeter print of A Clockwork Orange. I had been a fan of that film ever since it was released, but I could never study it because… This was early 1970s. There was no VHS, there was no DVDs, there was, no Online, there was no Netflix, nothing. The only way to study a movie was to see it on the screen. And then, the projectionist would not play it again for you to study your favorite scenes. So, when I got my hands on this 35-millimeter print of A Clockwork Orange I was ecstatic!. I took all my work off the old upright Movieola and put Mr. Kubrick’s work on it… Then I spent hours running it forwards and backwards, & finally I discovered that Mr. Kubrick was building all his lighting into the sets and locations. Do you know Clockwork Orange?

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Yes, one of my favorite movies when I was a teenager.

  David Worth: You know the scene where Little Alex kills the Cat Lady with the sculpture of the giant phallus? When I was running the film, forward and backward. Suddenly, I hit the break and said: “What the fuck?” I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Because at the end of that scene, Mr. Kubrick is following the Cat Lady and little Alex 360 degrees around that location. And he’s using a very wide-angle lens, like a 16 or 18-millimeter lens. I could see all four walls, the floor, and the ceiling, and I suddenly realized there were no movie lights. There were NO MOVIE LIGHTS! This was no student film. This was no Roger Corman film. This was a Stanley Kubrick production of a Warner Brothers film that had been nominated for four Academy Awards! I was stunned! I was flabbergasted! I was gobsmacked! I couldn’t believe what I was seeing! I slowly went back and froze the frames where I could see all the lighting… That’s when I discovered exactly what Mr. Kubrick had done! And that was to bring in several light sculptors, one in the form of a spiral, one in the form of a Christmas tree, others in bunches, each containing a lot of 150-watt bulbs. Then he plugged them into the wall sockets, said “We’re lit!” and shot the scene!

  Discovering THAT changed my life as a cinematographer. I even wrote an article in the American Cinematographer magazine, entitled, “If it’s good enough for Mr. Kubrick…” Why don’t more of us use this technique? It’s brilliant, because it’s actor-friendly and production friendly. If you build the lighting into the set, you can shoot 360 degrees. You never have to change the lighting when the director says, “Okay, I’m done in this direction. I’m going to shoot in the other direction…” I’ve been on the set where the director says, “Okay, I want to shoot the other way.” The DP says, “Okay, give us two hours to reset the lights.” I say Bullshit! And more importantly Mr. Kubrick said, “Bullshit!”

  And he began building all the lighting into the sets of his films, starting with Dr. Strangelove… 2001: A Space Odyssey, Clockwork Orange, and then, of course, the candlelight scenes in Barry Lyndon. This is the technique I brought to Bronco Billy. This is what I brought to Clint Eastwood.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: So, the connection between Clint Eastwood’s Bronco Billy and Stanley Kubrick is not only Scatman Crothers who acted in both Bronco Billy and The Shinning released the same year; it is also David Worth.

David Worth: Right! Because I brought the “Kubrickian Technique” of building the lighting into the sets or locations to Bronco Billy! We had a huge circus tent, and I said, “Okay, I want all the lighting built into this tent.” So, up high between the two upright tent poles, I had a connecting pole as well as two additional poles at right angles forming a “T…” Then we placed all our lighting onto these poles and the entire set was lit! I could walk in at 7:30 in the morning, hit the switch, take a reading with my light meter and say, “Okay, f2.8 in every direction, let’s shoot!” We did 40 or 50 setups a day. On a Warner Brothers film starring Clint Eastwood that would normally do 10 or 15 setups a day!

  Clint is a very efficient and very fast director. 75% of the time, he prints either the rehearsal or the first take. So everyone is on their toes. They don’t want to displease the Big Guy. So, he always comes in several days ahead of schedule. However, on Bronco Billy, he didn’t come in several days ahead of schedule. As a result of my building the lighting into all the other sets and locations, we came in two and a half weeks ahead of schedule, saving the production over a million dollars! That’s how I got to capture two Clint Eastwood films instead of one.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Did you like Kubrick’s last movie, Eyes Wide Shut?

David Worth: Didn’t like it… However, my only regret is that Stanley Kubrick didn’t get a chance to come into this century. He died in the 1990s. He began as a still photographer and was shooting SLR, single lens reflex 35-millimeter cameras. However, he never got his hands on a DSLR, the digital version. These cameras shoot from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO 400,000.  Trust me… He would have stood it on its ear, just like he did the Steadicam! That’s my regret: that Mr. Kubrick never got his hand on the DSLR that had a virtually unlimited ISO!!!

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Our interview comes to its end. Is there anything you would like to add?

  David Worth: Yes, there is something I would like to add. Clint Eastwood is a brilliant filmmaker. I loved his work, decades before I worked with him. He’s now 92 years old. He’s had an over 50-year relationship with Warner Brothers, doing huge productions: the Dirty Harry films, all very big hits. As well as his Academy Award winners like Mystic River & Million Dollar Baby & Unforgiven!!! The latest corporate-bottom-liner at Warner Brothers just severed their relationship with Clint after 50 years because his last film, Cry Macho didn’t make money. This is a guy who is the icon of icons. He’s been making hit movies longer than anyone has been around in this town. The icon of icons!!! At 92 years old, he should have carte blanche for anything he wants to do from here on out. Carte Fucking Blanche! Instead, these moronic assholes get rid of him because his last $20 million movie didn’t make enough money. And then they spend $200 million on the other big budget crap they churn out, on each of these comic-book-super-duper-hero movies. Have some respect for your elders! The stars who put WB on the map! That’s what I’d like to say!

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for your time. I was wondering: how do you feel about the breakup between Eastwood and Locke?

  David Worth: It was an awful breakup. I hated to see it. It should never have happened…   I never thought I would even meet Clint. It wasn’t on my radar because I knew I was making my little films on the side streets of Hollywood, and he was: “Clint Eastwood.” It was only because I did that little film, Death Game,… Sondra Locke who was the star of that film, liked my work & when she began working with Clint, she mentioned me, to him… That’s how I got my foot in the door, through the brilliant and insightful and compassionate Sondra Locke. And I’m eternally grateful…

That conversation was originally published on Bulletproof Action, in March 2023

A conversation with Haskell Vaughn Anderson III, for Bulletproof Action

A conversation with Haskell Vaughn Anderson III, for Bulletproof Action

by ·

Haskell Vaughn Anderson III is an American film, television and theater actor. He is notably known for his role in the 1989 martial arts film Kickboxer—and his role in the 1976 film Brotherhood of Death.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: You served as president of Catholics in Media for two years. How did Jesus enter your life?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: I was always educated in Catholic schools. I’m a practicing Catholic. It didn’t do anything for me career-wise, but it was an enjoyable experience. It gave me the opportunity to become a member of the Jewish committee, which is a committee that goes to different film festivals. And I was at the Venice Film Festival in 2005. That was the year that Broke Back Mountain came out and a few other films. Yeah, it has touched me in a professional way. Yes, it did. I can’t say it hasn’t. And it was an enjoyable experience here, in Los Angeles. I started off as a regular member of Catholics in Media then, I was vice-president for two or three years and president for two.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: When it comes to those moviemakers (such as Martin Scorsese, Abdel Ferrara, or Mel Gibson) whose work and mindset, at least at a cultural level, are especially Catholicism-framed, which of them comes as your favorite?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: I don’t know how they actually practice Catholicism. I do know that Mel Gibson is more of a strict Catholic, so to speak. Got that from his father, from what I’ve been told. We never spoke about it, although we have been in person together, but we never spoke about the church or his practicing of his faith. So, I don’t know how devout he is. But his church is in Malibu, somewhere, that his father built. I have not been there.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about 40 Days Road and your other ongoing movie-projects.

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: 40 Days Road. Yes. We’re still in development on that project. It’s not on the back burner. We’re just holding off on it for a little bit because we’re involved with another project that I was involved with more than 30 years ago as a stage production. We are now developing it. The script has been written. We’re now looking for investors. We will be at the American Film Festival, this coming November, pushing it. It’s actually a play that was written by a friend of mine who was in another play with me called Traces About Vietnam. He wrote the play, and it won what they call the 6th NAACP Image Award. One of them was the best supporting actor, which I was honored to win. We are hoping that we will have production of that film. Is that 40 Days Road? No, I’m sorry. This film is called Detroit Rounds. The play was actually called Rounds. We’re calling it Detroit Rounds because we’re going to set it in Detroit. This is a movie, and the play was about four guys who worked in the same plant together. They’re having this kind of civil war thing within the company because the union wants to send jobs overseas and cut employment of these guys. This is their life, so it reflects what was going on here in the auto industry in Detroit in this country back in the, I would say, 70s, after Vietnam. They lost a friend, so they get together one night to celebrate the death of this friend that they lost and to watch the championship fight between Muhammad Ali and I forget who the other character, the fighter, was, but we will see that when the film comes out.

  40 Days Road, that’s a film about a cardinal. It was an idea that I cooked up and spoke to my writer friend who is now one of my partners in our film company. It’s about a cardinal who has come to a point in his life where he’s somewhat confused about where he’s going and what it is that he’s supposed to be doing. Even though he has attained that rank of cardinal, he still has some thoughts in his head. It’s an interesting story. It all takes place in Sudan. Before he became a priest, he was a medical physician, and so, he actually has two occupations. He goes off to Darfur to see a friend that he had met while he was in the Jesuit seminary. He actually ends up meeting a woman who was also a physician. There’s much trial and tribulation to that story.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: The arc story for Winston Taylor, your character in Kickboxer, who, haunted by the souvenir of his failure to save a friend in Vietnam, ends up redeeming himself through helping Kurt Sloane [Jean-Claude Van Damme] defeat Tong Po [Mohammed Qissi] and the mafia, is quite moving. How did you put yourself so convincingly in Taylor’s shoes?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: Well, part of acting. I guess I made myself that character. I became Winston Taylor, and I felt from talking to other people with what their experiences were during that period of time, and I just used them.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you feel the character’s fate should have been further explored in another Kickboxer installment or spinoff?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: I don’t know. Perhaps, it would have been feasible. It probably could have worked, but they chose not to do it. I didn’t ask, but I had thought about what that would have been like. How far had the character advanced? What was his story afterwards? It would have been interesting. But they didn’t do it, but that’s okay.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Despite the movie’s somewhat low budget, the short gunfight at the end of Kickboxer, when Winston Taylor [Haskell V. Anderson III] comes to rescue Eric Sloane [Dennis Alexio], is pretty good. How do you account for such effectiveness on the movie’s team’s part?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: Actually, I guess I never really thought about it that way. The character had something to do, he had to rescue a friend, Jean-Claude’s brother, Kurt’s brother. And being that he was a military vet, he had access to what he needed to get the job done. It was interesting. Actually, that was my first day of shooting. It was very interesting. We shot that part in Hong Kong. It was not a difficult scene. Actually, I’m not gonna say it was easy, but it took a little bit of time to work into it on that day. Although I has been rehearsing the lines for some time. But to get that emotional feel on that day, it took a few minutes in the trailer to get myself ready.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Did you stay in touch with Jean-Claude Van Damme or other actors in Kickboxer?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: Other actors, yes. The director, David Worth. Michel Qissi, I see every now and then, I think we were together about, I think, at least, two years ago. Jean-Claude, rare, very rare even though we used to live a block away from each other. And Rochelle Ashana… we do emails through Facebook pretty often. She sends photographs. She has a son that’s going to UCLA. I bet he’s in his senior year. He’s either a junior or a senior. She’s supposed to be visiting from Hawaii very soon. I’m waiting to hear from her because we haven’t been together in quite some time.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you assess the evolution of Van Damme’s career since Kickboxer?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: It’s interesting. Here you have an action star, so to speak, who actually got to the top of the pyramid and just, I guess, in some way, just lost it. But it’s an interesting article that was in the New York Times just the other day. Someone is doing an off-Broadway or off-off-Broadway production of Jean-Claude Van Damme: The Rise and Fall, of Jean-Claude. It’s an interesting review. I think it got enough attention that it got reviewed by the New York Times. And they thought was pretty good.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Quentin Tarantino is openly a huge admirer of Brotherhood of Death. Have you ever met him? Did you enjoy his last movie, Once upon a time in Hollywood?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: No, I have not met him. I didn’t see the whole film. I have it, but I haven’t really watched the entire film. I do that sometimes. I read a lot of books, sometimes I don’t finish them.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: When it comes to characters in classical theatre (Hamlet in Shakespeare, Don Rodrigue aka Le Cid in Corneille, Theseus in Racine, Don Juan in Tirso de Molina, etc.), which are those of them you especially aspire to play?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: I started my entire career in theater. Done Shakespeare. I’ve never done Hamlet, but I did Richard III, Comedy of Errors. God! can’t even remember the names. I don’t have my resume in front of me to tell you where the plays were. But it was a very rewarding experience, doing Shakespeare all the time. Othello. I didn’t play Othello, but I was one of the major characters. Was it Lodovico? Yeah, I think it was Lodovico. It was just such a discipline, a base. That’s what I like about British theater. The actors learn the classics. I think you need to do that. That’s my opinion.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Those many-hundred-years-old classics of theater are enjoying tenacious fame; but very few of the movies that are successful when released meet a fame that is other than ephemeral. Very few are not forgotten more or less rapidly.

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: That is so true. Very few from all the films that have been done. Very few do you remember. It’s just amazing. Film comes down today, it’s forgotten next month. All of a sudden, you see it on the cable, and then it’s forgotten a week later.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Screenwriters could learn a lot from Shakespeare, Euripides, Aeschylus, and Sophocles. Screenplays would be much better.

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: It’s difficult. Difficult in the sense that it takes a lot time to do a really, really, really good screenplay. But if people weren’t so much interested in just making a lot of money, just throwing anything out there, I think screenplays on a whole would be a lot better. But that’s business.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about your long-established collaboration with playwright Vince Melocchi.

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: Vince Melocchi belonged to the same theater company I am still a member of. And Vince is, too, even though he moved back East. I did two of his major productions. One of them went to off-broadway, which was just a wonderful experience! Julia was the name of this play. Before that, we did a play called Lions about a group of people who were Detroit Lions football fans, and they had this club that they went to and spent a lot of time at. It was very, very, very beautifully written. I really enjoyed those characters that I portrayed. We were members, I would say, since 1994. It was at the at Pacific Resident Theater in Los Angeles, here, and still active, and it’s getting more active now since we are getting beyond the epidemic. Vince is still writing. We’ll see what he comes up with next. But a he’s an excellent writer.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything you would like to add?

  Haskell Vaughn Anderson III: We’re talking about a film, Kickboxer, that was made 30 years ago. It’s just unbelievable how much of a following it has! You’re walking down the street, and somebody’s shouting out your line. “Oh, you in that film Kickboxer, can we have a picture?” I had no idea the film would be attracting that much attention this long. None, whatsoever. You can call it. What do they call it? A cult film. But Quentin Tarantino he was a fan of another film, Brotherhood of Death. Actually, it was my first film. You can see that on YouTube. That has picked up a following of its own, also. I used to run from that film. Oh, my God, please don’t share it! But, hey, you did it. You own it. Be proud of it.

If people see this interview and they enjoy it and they’re thinking about acting or directing or writing, just be patient, just do it and be disciplined, discipline yourself. This is what I want to do and I want to be the best of the best. But I hope I satisfied you.

That conversation was originally published on Bulletproof Action in February 2023

A conversation with Brad Thornton, for Bulletproof Action

A conversation with Brad Thornton, for Bulletproof Action

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Brad Thornton is an American actor, martial artist, producer, and entertainment attorney. He tackles any challenge that presents itself, from leaping off a 250-foot railroad trellis to documenting the plight of the homeless to trekking across the High Sierras in search of tranquility and the perfect fishing hole.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: From Kickboxer IV: The Aggressor to Interstellar Civil War, you’ve been an action actor for the great Albert Pyun. Please tell us about this collaboration. What did you learn alongside Mr. Pyun?

  Brad Thornton: I learned a lot working with Albert. We first met during the audition process in Kickboxer 4. I remember there were like five auditions: three acting auditions and a couple of physical martial arts technique auditions. And at the beginning—this was my really first feature film where it was a lead role—and the producers, they weren’t really seeing Albert’s vision. They wanted to continue to go with Sasha Mitchell and stuff like that. And Albert wanted to give me an opportunity also to have some fun. So he kind of rewrote the Kickboxer 4 script to include my character. We got to do some of the fun stuff and this and that, and whatever. It was a blast to do. Working with him has really shown me a lot about just how quickly you can shoot an indie film. I remember on Kickboxer 4, one of our stunt scenes or whatever—a testament to the fighter I was working with, a stunt guy. We basically went through the moves about 15 minutes before we did the stunt. He said, “Okay, I’m going to come in and kick you here, I’m going to knee you here.” Then, he says, “Okay, I’m going to flip over you.”—when I grab him like this. I said, “Okay, well, when you flip over me, what about at the top of your thing, I flip over you? Then, we both land like that and just slam, slam.” And that’s the fight that ended up in that one scene. We did it in like 15 minutes, and Albert shot it in two takes, and then, we moved on. It was great.

  And then, in our latest Interstellar Civil War, which we did predominantly on a green screen, it was crazy. We shot this one scene for, like, one take. It felt like 30 minutes. There were so many pages to do and stuff like that. And then, that was it. That was the print. We moved on. Not even one for safety—do another take or whatever for safety. And it was really exciting in that manner, it was like play. You really have to come prepared and ready and stuff like that. But also, where Albert is at currently, which he’s been very public with regards to his health and stuff like that and some of the challenges ahead of him with regards to dementia and Alzheimer’s: one, I understand that ’cause I helped out my grandfather who had Alzheimer’s and stuff towards the end of his life. An Albert has always been a hero to me. He gave me my first shot at that film and stuff like that. So, working with him now and stuff and where he’s at is just an amazing experience for a testament to his passion for making films, for doing it his way, and to be able to create a niche of fans that are so true, and that’s worldwide—and that’s a testament to him and his creativity and his passion. I’ve got a lot of love for him.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Lando Smith, your character in Kickboxer IV, is just as charismatic and deep as those other key protagonists of the saga that are David Sloane and Xian Chow. How did you find the inspiration for your portrayal of Lando?

  Brad Thornton: That was the beginning, really, of my acting, and I wasn’t really solid on my technique, yet. So, I really drew upon just myself in that manner, and I tried to learn the lines and apply the intentions and stuff like that, but I really just tried to be present and real. You know? But I think along the way, my acting technique and the craft of acting have changed a lot, and I really love and I feel very blessed by it. I’ve trained with Iris Klein. She’s one of my coaches in LA. I began training with her mother, Janet Alhanti. And I trained at the Tom Todoroff Conservatory out of New York. And all that training has helped me hone in on my technique as an actor. So, I think that my inspiration back then, and even still today—I think you have to draw upon yourself. You know? What would you do in that imaginary situation, and how would you act and really make the lines your own? That goes a lot into the preparation and stuff. Yeah, so, I felt like I was more winging it way back then because I really didn’t have a process, per se. I just learned the lines, and I tried to be real, and that was my inspiration on that. You know? And the character was fun! It was an undercover DEA.

  I got to do the fight scenes and a sex scene. Crazy for my first film. Albert is so great. He’s really great to work with as an actor. He wants to create a safe environment. I remember one scene where we improvised almost the entire scene. It was a blast!

Grégoire Canlorbe: Kickboxer IV is arguably the most sexualized installment in the saga. What stood behind this artistic decision?

Brad Thornton: I think Albert has always been on the edge, and I think that as for any filmmaker, the reality is that sex sells worldwide in that aspect. If you have a film that does have some sex scenes and then, has some martial arts fighting from all different types of martial arts and an underlying story that’s interesting and stuff like that—that’s all these winning combinations for any film that has a worldwide market, that can be translated into many different languages. By today’s standards, anyway, I think it’s pretty tame.

Brad Thornton in Kickboxer IV and other works

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about your collaboration with the man who’s been bearing the Kickboxer sequels on his shoulders—Sasha Mitchell.

  Brad Thornton: Sasha is great. He was very gracious, and we had a really good time shooting Kickboxer 4. Then, I’ve seen him at other martial arts events or whatever, lately, and oh, my gosh, he’s like a mountain! That guy is so huge. I can’t believe how big he’s gotten and stuff like that. But he looks like he’s in amazing shape, and he’s always been such a great, nice guy to me.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What about Kamel Krifa, who portrays Tong Po in Kickboxer IV?

  Brad Thornton: Kamel is a great guy, been a friend of mine since KB4. We’ve had lunches and coffees and chats together. I love him. He’s like a brother. When he comes to town—I haven’t seen him in a couple of years, but we’re always talking about what we could do next—that kind of thing. He’s a go-getter. He’s a great martial artist.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Besides Kickboxer IV, another martial-arts movie in which you acted is The Sensei. How do you feel it enriches the genre?

  Brad Thornton: I love The Sensei. It’s when I first met Ron Balicki and Diana Lee Inosanto—Bruce Lee’s goddaughter—they came to me to help with the production, legal and stuff like that. Then, one thing led to another, and I got to audition, and they realized I was an actor, and we’ve been friends and family ever since. I trained and learned things from Ron as a guru, martial arts wise. And Diana, she’s just really an amazing soul. Love her. What I really loved about The Sensei was it was at a time where it put into the conversation AIDS, sexual preference and a lot of other things that are not necessarily ever brought up in the martial arts films. And it has a unique twist about it with regards to The Sensei and people’s misconceptions of others and their judgments on others. I believe that it also teaches some of the spirituality aspects of martial arts, what that brings, as well. And it’s a great storyline. It’s got action. It really was a great little film, I think, that really touched a lot of people.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: You had the opportunity to act alongside legendary actor David Carradine [Bill in Quentin Tarantino’s Kill Bill diptych] in a movie adaptation of Shakespeare’s Richard III. Sounds thrilling.

  Brad Thornton: That was a crazy, fun film. It was Shakespeare in modern day. Right off the bat, I got to say, the best thing about that film is that I met my wife on that film. But we weren’t together then, and we didn’t get together for years after that, but that’s why I first met her. The film was a fun Shakespearean film. I got the opportunity to work with some iconic actors at the time. I had a scene with David Carradine and María Conchita Alonso and Anne Jeffreys, all these really iconic actors that it was just an honor to be in their presence. And then, the word Shakespeare and stuff like that, it was my first real opportunity to do that, and that was a challenge. But I think that also, as my journey as an actor, really, I love Shakespeare now. I love doing Hamlet and Hamlet‘s advice to players and all of these things.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Let’s talk about your passion for motorcycle. How did the latter take shape? Do you have some favorite road movie?

  Brad Thornton: I love motorcycles. I started riding motorcycles when I was a kid before I learned how to drive a car, a dirt bike, or whatnot. I’ve got a funny story about that, actually. I was living in Tennessee at the time, and I did this one commercial for the Army for motorcycle safety. This was near Fort Campbell where the Special Forces are stationed. It was actually this Green Beret’s jet bike that I was on. We all met at this park area where it had a little trail and stuff like that. It was a Ducati bike, and it’s got some power to it. I wanted to go test it out a little bit to just feel the response and everything else. I asked them, I said, “Listen, before we start shooting can I take it for a spin to get the feel of it?”—cause they’re still doing prep. The director is getting the shot all set up and stuff like that. Army guys are there, Special Forces guy has got his bike, He says, “Yeah, go right ahead.” So, I hop on the bike and I’m like vroom, vroom, vroom—I come around this one corner and I downshift hard and the shifter pedal breaks, snaps. Just snaps. I mean, it’s really hard metal. I’ve ridden a bike for a long time and this was a first. I don’t know what the heck happened, but it snapped, and right at the apex of this turn like this.

 I’m thinking, “Oh my God! I broke the bike. We haven’t even shot the commercial, yet, they’re going to kill me!” And it’s a Green Beret guy, he’s really going to kill me. So, I come back around like this and I tried to put it in neutral, pulled clutch and stuff, and I wheel it all in there, and I’m like, “Oh, my God! I just broke the shifter pedal.” The guy didn’t look that surprised. He tells me it had broke before and then goes to fix it with a Swiffer broom handle, duct tape and wire.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you react to that scene in Ridley Scott’s Black Rain with a gang of yakuzas perpetrating a beheading while riding their motorcycles?

  On another note, I believe Ridley Scott’s esthetics in his movies, his work on images, has been quite influential on the esthetics of Albert Pyun. Especially when it comes to Pyun’s Nemesis, the visual aspect of which is quite reminiscent of Blade Runner. You know, Pyun may work with low budgets; but he always manages to deliver refined, astonishing, visuals.

  Brad Thornton: I love Black Rain. I had an amazing time living in Japan on and off for about a year and a half, about three months, three-four months each time. Such great times! And yes, Albert Pyun is definitely able to make something out of nothing.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you have some favorite road or landscape for your motorcycle journeys?

  Brad Thornton: I love going down Topanga Canyon around here. It’s like a canyon and stuff like that. Then, it basically drops you off at the Pacific Coast Highway, which is right next to the beach. Then, you can see the ocean as you drive on up, and the wind is cool and stuff like that. It’s probably one of my favorite places to ride.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: You worked as a bodyguard for Arnold Schwarzenegger and his family. How is the man behind the legend?

  Brad Thornton: Arnold and family are amazing, it was an honor and a pleasure to work with them. They were so gracious and sweet to me the whole time I worked with them. Everybody really was. It was a lot of fun. I got a lot of funny stories about that. I’ll tell you this one story. I don’t know if they still have it, but they had this potbelly pig named Bacon. I had one of the night shifts. It was about 2.30, 3 o’clock in the morning, and I’m in the guard shack right by the house and I start to smell smoke. So, I went outside and I come around this corner, and Bacon is in the middle of his little house, and the house’s flames are on fire, like 3 feet in the air. So, I yell to get Bacon out. The pig wouldn’t come out. I run back, grab the fire extinguisher, come back out. The pig is still just standing there in the middle of his house burning down. Bacon was actually going to become bacon. I squirted in the fire extinguisher, which scared Bacon to finally come out. What had happened was that they had put this light in there to keep Bacon warm. But the wire had basically been in a situation where every time they opened and shut the top, it hit the wire and eventually, it broke through and created like a short.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: The Cursed is a peak in your career both as an actor and a producer. How did you get involved with the project? How do you remember the filming?

  Brad Thornton: That’s one of the special films, too, The Cursed. You know, one of my near and dear friends, Phil Melfi, he—rest his soul—passed away a few months after we finished everything. He had called me up out of blue and said, “Hey, I got this screenplay written by Devin Watson”—who’s his friend there, in Tennessee, which is a great place to shoot—“Let’s go make a movie. I got the budget.” And off we went! We got everybody together and got to Tennessee and shot this little film in the town of McMinnville, Tennessee. Louis Mandylor was there, a dear friend of mine, now. It was just such a fun time, and people in McMinnville were all really amazing and very gracious. Ron Balicki worked on it with me as stunt coordinator, Mike Jones was our fire guy. A funny story we had this one shot where we were going to light Ron on fire. He was in his freezing cold gel soaked undergarments and was already shivering. Basically, once you put it on, you really want to get lit on fire soon after that or you’ll get hypothermia.

  So, Ron gets all this stuff on, gets the monster costume on, he gets on out there like that, and he’s standing in the middle of the barn. Then, Louis and I are standing a bit away from hims ready to shoot the last scene of the monster getting set on fire. We’re supposed to throw these Molotov cocktail cocktails on the monster, and he lights up. Problem is that the lighter we had got soaked in that gel. So, we got cameras rolling and we’re trying to light the thing on fire. Thankfully some of the smokers in the group had back up. Ron was really ready to get set ablaze at that point. It’s also the first time I did a basic jerk pulley stunt, I think that’s what they call it, where the monster slaps me and I fly in the air. I love doing stunts so I was like a kid in a candy store! The Cursed really, though, most importantly, I made a lot of dear friends. And if it wasn’t for Phil Melfi, we would have never made that film. It’s basically his film.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Your favorite boogeyman in horror movies.

  Brad Thornton: Probably Jason because I met Douglas Tait, who played Jason. Cool guy, And tall!

  Grégoire Canlorbe: While Rich in Spirit (which you directed) is a documentary about homelessness, the Prey series, one of your feats of arms as a producer, tells the fate of a homeless veteran struggling with his inner demons. Why is homelessness a topic so meaningful to you?

  Brad Thornton: I think—like the title in the documentary suggests—which neither one of those ever got distributed or anything like that, unfortunately—but Rich in Spirit: we’re all rich in spirit. I’ve always believed that we are all spirit. And being out there and being homeless, it just has always broken my heart in a way that I felt like I wanted to put a voice out there, especially those who are veterans who’ve served the country and who end up homeless, or just help anyone in general. I shot a lot of footage. I went out and I slept in homeless camps. These homeless people were very gracious to me to allow me to come into their inner communities and talk and stuff like that. This was in Nashville. One of the great places I found there was Room in The Inn, a homeless transitional situation where it’s got three different stages. Homelessness in general is a very sad thing.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you assess those movies that are Ted Kotcheff’s First Blood (Rambo) and Clint Eastwood’s American Sniper, which more or less lie in the same vein as Prey?

  Brad Thornton: Those are two favorite movies of mine. They’re action films, and they have great topics underlying the action and stuff like that. I love them, they’re cool.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What do you think of this road movie that is Clint Eastwood’s last movie (as it stands), Cry Macho?

  Brad Thornton: Cry Macho, I think it’s interesting. For me, Clint Eastwood is someone who is iconic. I’ve loved his movies ever since I started watching all the spaghetti westerns or whatever that they call them. I also love that on his sets when he’s directing that he’s really a calm director. So I’ve heard, haven’t worked with him yet! 

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How did it feel to explore the SF-genre on the occasion of your acting in Interstellar Civil War?

  Brad Thornton: I think sci-fi in general—the main difference on that film was that the majority of it was shot on a green screen. That was really great. It was like an exercise in sensory memory. You really have to imagine what’s out there and what you’re talking to and what you’re seeing and where you’re at and all that stuff. Even in a sense, remember, we’re supposed to be in this desert after this time and stuff like that. So, you really have to feel the heat beating up on you and the desert and stuff, your face, everything, the sand gets everywhere, you just start to feel gritty, and you got to allow yourself to have some time to just get into that space. When you’re looking out, when you’re looking at this little piece of gaffer’s tape for an eyeline, that piece of gaffer’s tape is actually an object or something else or whatever that’s in the scene, which you have to react to. It was fun. Star Wars is one of my favorites!

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Would you be ready to act in a new Star Wars movie or TV-series?

  Brad Thornton: Yes, I would love to. My friend Diana Lee Inosanto was in the Boba Fett thing, and I love it. I love Star Wars. I was a kid playing with little Star Wars dudes or whatever with my cousin Scott Thornton, and it was just a lot of fun. Yeah, I would jump at the chance to audition for anything in the Star Wars community or world or whatever. If there’s any casting out there listening, please, call my agent, Eddie Culbertson.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What about a Kickboxer–Star Wars crossover directed by Pyun in which a Force-sensitive Tong Po would have a fight with Darth Vader? Would you like to be part of such adventure?

  Brad Thornton: I think so. I think Lando goes to space—yeah, sure, why not? I do think that we did have some fun scenes in Interstellar and stuff like that dealt with like, basic Eskrima, martial arts, which was the laser blade fights and stuff like that. There’s kicks and punches all throughout. There’s soon to be a release date—I’m not sure what that date is, but I don’t think it’s yet released, so, hopefully, it will be soon.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for your time. Please feel free to add anything.

  Brad Thornton: Thank you. Actually, my latest work was on Fox’s new hit TV show The Cleaning Lady. Melissa Carter and Miranda Kwok’s show that was directed by Milan Cheylov, and Jeff Cadiente was the stunt coordinator. It really was just such a fun experience. Everyone working on that show is amazing! I was able to play Travis, a guns running bad guy in the finale of the first season. I love it when roles combine acting with stunts! Milan had told me, “We’re going to get a big death for you!” and it was! Put a gatorback on and flung mysef into the air. My kind of fun!

  I guess that’s it. I appreciate your thoughtful questions and your interview. Thank you!

That conversation was originally published in Bulletproof Action, in December 2022

A conversation with Paul Hertzog, for The Postil Magazine

A conversation with Paul Hertzog, for The Postil Magazine

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  Paul Hertzog is an American film-composer. He notably composed the soundtracks for two Jean-Claude Van Damme movies, Bloodsport and Kickboxer.

Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about the creative process that led you to compose those masterpieces that are “The Eagle Lands” and “Finals-Powder-Triumph.”

  Paul Hertzog: My greatest inspiration has always been the film itself, so I feel (strangely enough) that the action on screen told me what to do. Both of the cues you mention are final fights, the climax of each film. Since I like to compose in film order, these cues were also the last I wrote in each film. As a result, I already had melodies and rhythmic feels developed. All I had to do was find a way to fit them to picture. Since the emotions of each film had been building up to these climactic moments, I simply tried to tap into those emotions to find correspondence in music. This may not sound logical, but that’s the point. Logic has nothing to do with it. When I compose, I have to shut off the logical part of my brain and let my emotions find the music that underpins the scene. I think, also, I was helped by the fact that the villains (Chong Li and Tong Po) in both films were so well portrayed. They gave me the opportunity to develop the conflict between good and evil that creates that emotional tension in my music.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Your soundtracks for those scenes in Kickboxer in which Kurt Sloane (Jean-Claude Van Damme) is training in ruins haunted by the ghosts of ancient warriors, while an eagle is watching him, are full of spirituality. How did you find this mystical inspiration?

  Paul Hertzog: Again, I must reiterate that the source of my inspiration was the film itself.  I watched those scenes over and over until I felt (and I do mean “felt” rather than “understood”) the emotions that needed to be conveyed by the music. I’m not sure I can truly explain the source of musical inspiration, but, as I have already said, for me it is not a logical process. I have to shut off my conscious thinking and let the music flow as if it were pure emotion. That’s when I write my best music. Does this process involve spirituality or mysticism? I don’t know. We humans often try to explain the inexplicable with these terms, but I don’t worry about explanations. I simply go with the creative flow.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: As a musician, do you share the Pythagorean belief that the proportions ruling the distances between the celestial bodies are a sort of music?

  Paul Hertzog: In a word, no. This seems like a rather spurious analogy to me, an attempt to ascribe logic to a process that is, as I have already said, not logical at all.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Let us speak about Waking the Dragon. What does the creature that is the dragon mean to you? What is the plot, universe, you wanted to convey though this musical work?

  Paul Hertzog: The dragon is a part of me, the part of me that is a composer. After I left film and music behind in 1991 to pursue a career as a teacher (due to a number of setbacks in my career, in my financial state, in my mental state), the composer part of me essentially went to sleep. I attempted to wake up that aspect of my character nearly 20 years into my teaching career by writing the music of this project. I worked on it during vacation times since I didn’t have time while teaching. I also had obligations to my family, so I couldn’t immerse myself in it completely. It took probably 4-5 years to complete, and even now I’m not sure that it is fully satisfying to me, but it’s something I needed to do to get my juices flowing again. And now, in 2022, nearly 3 years since I retired as a teacher, I am writing music constantly, and some of it is the best I’ve ever done.

  And, yes, I also had a story in mind when I wrote this project. I envisioned a typical martial arts sort of plot. A corrupt and evil faction has taken over a city, a province, a region, a country, whatever you’d like, and the forces of good that might countermand that corrupt faction are essentially asleep. Meanwhile, out in the countryside, an ancient master of the martial arts is retired and quiet. However, a young admirer of the ancient master finds him and attempts to enlist his help in regrouping the forces of good. In other words, he wakes the dragon. The rest of the story should be fairly obvious.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for your time. Please tell us about your ongoing projects.

  Paul Hertzog: I am currently in discussion with people about scoring two new martial arts films. Both projects want the sort of music I composed for Bloodsport and Kickboxer. However, in this time of international pandemic, getting the films made has been challenging. All I would say is to keep an eye on my website or on Facebook for any news.

  Additionally, I am planning to release some new music soon, starting with a long composition entitled “Legends.” When you hear it, you will know who the legends are. Also, Perseverance Records has just released my score for Breathing Fire, the final film I scored before leaving the business. It is available as a CD or download on Amazon.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: I was wondering. What do you think of David Bowie’s music, especially his albums in Berlin? As you know, his Berlin album Low inspired a symphony by Philipp Glass.

  Paul Hertzog: I listened to Bowie some in the 80s but not since as I am more likely to listen to classical music these days. I am not familiar with the Berlin albums, though I may have heard some back in the day. I remember liking what I heard.

That conversation was originally published in The Postil Magazine‘s April 2022 issue

A conversation with Sheldon Lettich, for The Postil Magazine

A conversation with Sheldon Lettich, for The Postil Magazine

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Sheldon Lettich is an American screenwriter, film director, and producer. He is notably known for his work in the action film genre—and his collaborations with Jean-Claude Van Damme, Sylvester Stallone, Mark Dacascos, Dolph Lundgren, and Daniel Bernhardt. Besides co-writing Bloodsport and Rambo III, Sheldon Lettich directed and co-wrote Lionheart, Double Impact, and Only the Strong.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What is the situation with regard to your long-established movie-project about Vietnam?

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, I’ve written a lot of scripts about Vietnam, but none of them has been made. I wrote a script called Firebase. And it was kind of like that movie called Zulu. It was kind of like that. Basically, a small group of Americans on a hilltop firebase, and they got attacked by a huge number of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong. That was the screenplay I wrote a number of years ago. And Sylvester Stallone read the screenplay, and he liked it. And that’s how I ended up working with him on Rambo III, because he had read that screenplay. I’ve written a few other Vietnam screenplays, but none of them has gotten made, yet.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: You collaborated with Sylvester Stallone on Rambo III. How did your team come up with the idea of the tank-versus-helicopter scene? Or the idea of colonel Trautman’s “In your ass!” line?

  Sheldon Lettich: The tank-versus-helicopter scene wasn’t my idea, that was Stallone’s idea. And I thought it was not a plausible idea, but it seemed to work. You liked it, right? A helicopter versus a tank just makes no kind of sense at all because a tank is not designed to shoot at something moving fast like an airplane. A tank versus an airplane or a helicopter makes no kind of sense at all. You’d have to be very lucky. It takes some time to aim that cannon on a tank. So for a tank versus a helicopter, I didn’t believe it, but it seemed to work. There we are, it was Sly’s idea. As for colonel Trautman’s line in the interrogation scene, that was Stallone’s idea as well. That wasn’t mine.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: What kind of movie could be done about the withdrawal of the US troops from Afghanistan? Perhaps a new Rambo installment, in which Stallone would rescue a group of hostages once again abandoned in Afghanistan and, in the process, decapitate his former Taliban allies turned into despots of the region?

  Sheldon Lettich: I don’t see a good action movie coming out of that because everything about that was very disappointing. That really shouldn’t have happened the way that it happened. I don’t think anybody would want to see a movie about that. And Stallone is in his 70s, now. He’s a little old to go back into Afghanistan. And I think he’s had his—I think Rambo has had—his Afghanistan adventure and doesn’t really need another one. So I don’t see that happening at all. I’m 70 years old. Stallone’s even older than me. I don’t know, he’s like 72. I don’t think he’ll want to do some crazy action movie where he’s running around firing a gun and killing all kinds of Afghans. It’s just not going to happen again.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Jean-Claude Van Damme served as an editor on Bloodsport, which you co-wrote. How much did he change the story with respect to the original screenplay?

  Sheldon Lettich: The first cut was very bad, so Jean-Claude got involved. And he basically recut the fight scenes because he was involved with those fight scenes. He knew how the fight scenes should work. And there was another editor that Cannon brought in to recut the movie and to restructure it. And so they fixed it up. But Jean-Claude basically worked on the fight scenes, and he made those work really good. In the meanwhile, they got some other writers involved who made some changes. Most of the changes, I thought, were very good, actually. What I mostly did with Bloodsport is I came up with the idea. I structured it. I came up with the three-act structure where the beginning is that everybody’s getting ready to go to the fight. The middle is the tournament, and the movie ends after Gong Li is defeated and Jean-Claude goes home. So, that’s the structure that I came up with.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Before Bloodsport, had you been involved with Karate Tiger?

  Sheldon Lettich: No, I had nothing to do with that. That’s the first movie that I saw Jean-Claude in, here in the US. It was called No Retreat, No Surrender. And that was the movie—when we were looking for an actor for Bloodsport, that movie came out in theaters. It was playing in theaters here, in Los Angeles so the producer, Mark DiSalle, told us, “We found this new actor, Jean-Claude Van Damme. Go see his movies in the theaters, right now.” And that was No Retreat, No Surrender. And we were very impressed with him. And that’s pretty much—that helped him solidify the role in Bloodsport.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: After Bloodsport, did you get involved in Kickboxer?

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, I was involved just in that Kickboxer was the project that Mark DiSalle approached me with. When I first met Mark, he was looking for a writer, and he had an idea for a martial arts movie called Kickboxer. And so, he pitched me the idea, and I thought I had a better idea, which was Bloodsport. Bloodsport had not been written, but I’d been talking with Frank Dux about his experiences. Turned out that they weren’t real experiences: he had made all that stuff up.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about your partnership with Jean-Claude Van Damme in writing Full Contact, which is known as Lionheart in the US if I’m not mistaken.

  Sheldon Lettich: Yes, Lionheart. Actually, I got together with Jean-Claude and he came up with the basic idea. That was his idea. It was called the Wrong Bet, at first. We sat down in a coffee shop, one night on Sunset Boulevard to talk about it. We were in that coffee shop for about three hours, and the manager wanted us to leave because we were taking up—it was kind of empty, but he still wanted us out of there. He thought we were there for too long. And we told him to leave us alone. “We’re working on something, right now.” And then, he called the cops. So actually, we had some sheriff’s deputies come in there and tell us to leave. But in those three hours, we came up with the basic story line for Lionheart. But it was Jean-Claude’s original idea, that whole thing about—I think I came up with the Foreign Legion idea, but he came up with that idea about his sister-in-law, and she’s got a little daughter, and he has to fight in order to make money to take care of them. That was Jean-Claude’s.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: The fight between JCVD and Bolo Yeung at the end of Double Impact is quite an epic moment. How was it shot?

  Sheldon Lettich: Actually, it was shot in two different locations because we shot part of it in Hong Kong. I’m just trying to think about. We were on a ship in Hong Kong. No, the exterior of the ship was in Hong Kong, the interior of the ship was in Los Angeles. That was in San Pedro. And so, we actually shot on this ship, and then we looked at the footage later. We were kind of rushed that day. We didn’t have enough time to really do it right. And so we had a set built in Santa Clarita, also in Los Angeles, to shoot some additional shots. So it was basically like—it looks like it’s all done at the same time, but it was actually done in two different locations at two different times. We cut it all together, and it looked really great.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Why did JCVD never act with Bolo Yeung again after Bloodsport and Double Impact? After all, three is a magic number as they say.

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, he made two movies with Bolo. Bloodsport has Bolo, and Double Impact has Bolo. It’s hard to just keep using the same villain over and over again.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Are you concerned for the future of the cinema of Hong Kong as the Chinese Communist Party will be extending its grip on the city?

  Sheldon Lettich: I’m not an expert on that, but obviously, we’re not going to see Hong Kong movies like the old ones. It’s all going to change now because the Chinese have taken over. So there are certain things you can say, certain things you can’t say. The Chinese government controls whatever is going on in Hong Kong. So you’ll never see those Hong Kong movies like we saw before, the Jackie Chan’s. Oh, Jackie Chan, of course, is doing movies in China, also. But they’re not going to be quite the same as those John Woo movies. I don’t think he’ll be able to make movies anymore in Hong Kong with corrupt police officers. Basically, the way that the Chinese government sees it, there are no corrupt police officers in China. There are no gangsters in China. So, basically, everything has to change. They’re up to do a lot of historical stuff. So, you’re probably not going to see any contemporary stories like in those Hong Kong movies where you’ve got good cops, bad cops, gangsters, all kinds of stuff like that. I think that’s going away. And all they’re going to see out of Hong Kong and China is stuff that takes place hundreds of years ago in earlier eras in China, but not contemporary. Because contemporary means that you’ve got to have good guys and bad guys. And in China, they want everybody to believe that China is a perfect country. There are no gangsters, there are no corrupt cops. So everything is wonderful in China, which means you can’t have much drama for a contemporary movie. So, that era—the era of the John Woo movies and Ringo Lam and all of that—that’s pretty much over, for now.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about The Hard Corps, starring Jean-Claude Van Damme and Vivica A. Fox. How did such great movie with such great cast end up as a DTV?

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, we were hoping it was going to go to theaters. And the problem was that the producers just didn’t want to spend the money to get other actors that we needed to make it a theatrical movie. Because originally, it was supposed to be Jean-Claude and Wesley Snipes. So the boxer was supposed to be played either by Wesley Snipes or Cuba Gooding, which would have made it a much bigger movie. Basically, they said, “We’ve got Jean-Claude Van Damme. We’re paying him a lot. If we get Wesley Snipes, we’ll have to pay Wesley Snipes the same amount of money we’re paying Jean-Claude, and that’s going to make the budget too big.” Now, in my opinion, it would have helped the movie. We would have had a bigger name in there. We would have had three big names. We would have had Jean-Claude, Wesley Snipes and Vivica A. Fox. And I think for sure, it would have been a theatrical movie. And that’s why it didn’t go theatrical because we just didn’t have the money we needed to get the right cast.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: I’d like to hear you about The Order, which easily ranks among your best collaborations with JCVD. The scene in which Van Damme is dressed as a Hassidic Jew is just exceptional.

  Sheldon Lettich: I made another movie in Israel—I did a movie there with Dolph Lundgren, The Last Patrol. So I got to know Israel pretty well. The cops trying to catch Van Damme, it was basically my idea. But I didn’t write the original script for The Order. It was written by this guy, Les Weldon. I wanted to make it more like an old Hitchcock movie. Hitchcock made a movie called North By Northwest and another one called The Man Who Knew Too Much. And that’s what I wanted to do with The Order.You’ve got the bad guys and the cops all after Jean-Claude. So, basically, he’s in trouble with everybody. And that’s how all those Hitchcock movies worked. I rewatched North By Northwest just recently. It was on TV. And I realized there were a lot of ideas that I took from North By Northwest. And I even forgot that I took the ideas, like this one scene in North By Northwest with Cary Grant. He’s trying to disguise himself, so he puts on some dark sunglasses. I did the exact same thing in The Order. We got the cops looking for Jean-Claude, and he’s putting dark sunglasses on to disguise himself. So that’s the kind of movie it was supposed to be. And Hitchcock put a lot of humor into those movies, too, and I put a lot of humor into The Order.

  There was a Jean-Paul Belmondo movie called The Man from Rio. It was in the 1960s. I saw it in the theater. And so I wanted to make it a little bit like that. The same thing where everybody is chasing our hero. The cops and the bad guys were all after him. And then, there was another movie I saw. It was a French movie. So those two French movies, right there. It was called The Mad Adventures of Rabbi Jacob, where some guy was anti-Semitic. He’s got the mafia after him, and he disguises himself as a Hasidic Jew. And then, the bad guys and the cops are all chasing him. So that’s another part of that idea that I had. And then, just being in Jerusalem and just seeing these guys walking around, I just thought that would be a good disguise for Jean-Claude to have if he was trying to get away from the cops. So that was what pretty much led to that. And I really wasn’t sure if Jean-Claude would go for it, if he would actually do that. And he did. He totally went for it. He put the beard on and everything, and that’s my favorite sequence in the entire movie. I really love the way that whole sequence turned out. So that’s my favorite part of The Order.

  Our producer was Avi Lerner. And one thing Avi told me before we did the movie, he said, “l want an action scene every 10 minutes. Lots of action.” And he paid for it, too. They had the budget. We did a lot of crazy stuff in The Order. We were at the airport. Can you imagine shooting—nobody else has done that in Israel, but Avi had some connections. He had a cousin who was a pilot for El Al. That was how he got that jet where Jean-Claude was trying to get around the jet and just coming through. That was Avi’s cousin in the cockpit. And then, Avi was a good friend of the Mayor of Israel at the time, Ehud Olmert. And that’s how we got permission to shoot in Jerusalem. I mean, can you imagine? We’re doing this crazy chase scene, and we’re really on the streets of Jerusalem for most of it.

  It was very hard to shoot there. It’s very crowded. And the people who live there, it’s divided between Jews and Muslims. And they disagree on just about everything, but they all love Jean-Claude Van Damme. All of them are Van Damme fans. So we had a hard time getting away from them because they’d be surrounding us and chasing after us. They were like, “Van Damme! Van Damme!” They wanted him to sign autographs. It became very difficult to shoot in Jerusalem, so we ended up building sets in Bulgaria to look like Jerusalem. Half of that chase scene was shot in Jerusalem and on the real streets, and then the other half we shot on a recreated version of Jerusalem in Bulgaria. And what I find interesting about this is that even people who are from Israel or who’ve been in Jerusalem many times don’t realize that we shot in two different places. They think that we shot the entire thing on the streets of Jerusalem. So we did a pretty good job recreating that Jerusalem look.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Before Mark Dacascos acted for Christophe Gans in Crying Freeman and Brotherhood of the Wolf, he was revealed in Only the Strong. Please tell us about your collaboration with Dacascos.

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, he had a manager named Katherine James, and she was the one that was pushing Mark. She got in touch with me, said, “You need to work with my client, Mark Dacascos. He’s going to be the next big action star.” And so I met Mark and I liked him very much. And one thing I found out about him was that he was very good with gymnastics. He was a good acrobat, and I think he’d already been studying some capoeira at the time. And that was an important part of the movie. It was all about capoeira. So Mark was willing to go to classes with this real capoeira master from Brazil. So he learned all that stuff and was very willing to do anything I asked him to do. And it ended up working out great for the movie because he was able to do so much stuff that Van Damme can’t do, for example. Like Mark was good with the gymnastics. He could do flips. He could jump in the air. Jean-Claude can’t really do that kind of stuff. He’s good with the kicks and the punching, but if he has to do something gymnastic, we generally have to get a stunt double to do it for him. And also, Jean-Claude was not good with weapons, like martial arts weapons. He can use a gun. Of course, anybody can fire a gun, but he couldn’t do like the sticks and poles and all that kind of stuff, and Mark could do all of that stuff. We realized that in the movie, we’ve got him having fights with people using sticks and everything. And with Jean-Claude we couldn’t do that.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Scott Adkins is sometimes thought to be Jean-Claude Van Damme’s spiritual heir. How do you assess his performances?

  Sheldon Lettich: I think he’s great. I met him a few years ago, and I knew he was going to do great as an action actor. And he’s been doing terrific. He’s been doing a lot of great action movies. Unfortunately, we’re in a different era, now. Had I met Scott in the 1980s, he probably would have become a much bigger star because those kinds of movies were popular back then, in the 80s and 90s. By the time Scott came on the scene, those kinds of movies were not happening, anymore. And now, it’s become superhero movies. So superhero movies have kind of taken over as far as action movies. And Scott has certainly done a number of action films, and he’s been great in them, but that’s just not the kind of movie that’s getting the big theatrical releases, nowadays, which is unfortunate.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you share Martin Scorsese’s, Ridley Scott’s, and Denis Villeneuve’s recently expressed reservations about Marvel movies?

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, personally, I’m a Marvel Comics fan. From a long time ago, I was reading all those comic books in the 60s when they came out. I would go down to the to the store. The day that they put the comic books on the stands, I would go down to the store and get them. So I had all the originals. I had the first Fantastic Four and the first X-Men, the first Spider-Man. I had all those. I was a big fan of Marvel comic books back then. And then, when they started making the Marvel movies, I thought the first few were really great. I loved the first Iron Man movie, for example. And the first Captain America movie, I thought that was terrific. But then, they just started getting just too big for my taste. They’re too big, too many characters. And I started losing interest in those Marvel movies. They’re well-made, but there’s a sameness to them. They have the same kind of structure. They all end up with these huge action scenes with lots of special effects, lots of CGI. And personally, CGI is great, but I prefer action films that have some real stuff going on screen where people are actually fighting. They’re not relying on CGI.

  I was a big fan of the earlier James Bond movies, the pre-CGI James Bond movie. I was a big James Bond fan for many years. But with some of these more recent ones, once they started getting into too much CGI, and I wasn’t seeing real stunts anymore, I started losing interest in those. Although the Daniel Craig ones, I think are really good. They basically made some real changes with those Daniel Craig versions. But even so, I’m just not the Bond’s fan that I used to be many years ago. And the Marvel movies, Scorsese says they’re not real movies. Well, they really are more like just an assembly line product. There’s a sameness to all of them, now. It just feels like you’re watching the same movie: lots of CGI, lots of explosions and crazy weapons, crazy flying machines. But they just don’t have the same kind of heart that they had in the earlier ones, the first few that they made.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Do you share the commonly heard criticism that Christopher Nolan’s action scenes are as much bad and poorly shot as his screenplays and concepts are astute?

  Sheldon Lettich: Christopher, I think he’s great. See, his action scenes feel fresh and original to me because he’s basically running the show. He’s coming up with these movies. He’s not recycling some comic book characters. He’s doing original movies, coming up with original action scenes. Whereas with the Marvel movies, the producers are pretty much telling—they’re hiring directors who are basically traffic cops and telling them, “This is what the movie is going to be. This is what the action scenes are going to be. And you get out there, and you just tell the actors what to do.” They just move the characters around. And with Christopher Nolan, it’s not like that. He’s basically making Christopher Nolan movies. He’s doing action scenes that are fresh and original and doing them the way he wants to do them. And I really admire him for that. And James Cameron, too. James Cameron is another example. I love the Avatar movie. I’ve watched it a number of times. The action scenes are great. Everything about Avatar is fantastic. But James Cameron, basically, he’s calling his own shots. He’s basically saying, “I want to do this movie called Avatar. These are the actors I want.” And he goes and makes the movie. And he’s got no studio executives telling him how to structure his movie, what characters are going to be in it. It’s basically his show. And that makes a big difference.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: How do you explain that Hollywood, which used to be somewhat conservative and patriotic in the Reaganian era, has become so woke in the last few years?

  Sheldon Lettich: No, it wasn’t really conservative in the eighties. It was not Hollywood. That was Stallone. That was Stallone’s own point of view. Stallone was somewhat patriotic. He was a big supporter of Reagan, America. Reagan was, I don’t know—I wouldn’t call him a close personal friend, but he knew Reagan. He voted for him. I’m not sure if he campaigned for him, but they were very closely aligned in their politics. The rest of Hollywood was not. Stallone was kind of an outlier when it came to Hollywood. Oliver Stone, for example, has a completely different point of view. So that was Stallone and Schwarzenegger. Both of them were Republicans. Schwarzenegger even ended up being the Republican governor of California. So that was really their point of view, but that was not Hollywood. Hollywood was actually much more liberal during that period.

  And that’s why the Rambo movies got such bad reviews, too. Like Rambo III, I mean, we got a Golden Razzie Award for Worst Screenplay, Worst Movie because most of the press was very liberal. And so they were not really voting their conscience about the movie. It was all about politics. “Because Stallone is a conservative Republican, we’re going to say that his movie is shit.” But actually, Rambo III, I think, is a pretty damn good movie. I like Rambo II even better. But basically, that was not the Hollywood attitude at the time. That was Stallone, Schwarzenegger—Bruce Willis also ended up being a Republican. So a lot of these action stars had a different point of view from most people in Hollywood. Like even Van Damme, he’s very conservative. He’s not an American. I think he is an American citizen now, actually. And he was a Trump supporter. Even Stallone and Schwarzenegger were not Trump supporters but Van Damme was. We’re not talking about Hollywood in general, we’re talking about action stars who, for the most part, tended to be more conservative and lean towards the Republicans more than the Democrats.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Please tell us about this recent movie of yours whose main character is a soldier dog, Max.

  Sheldon Lettich: Well, that brought me back to Afghanistan because the beginning of the movie takes place in Afghanistan? So rather than Rambo in Afghanistan, Max was really Rambo with four legs instead of two. He was basically a Rambo character. Max, he’s a soldier in Afghanistan. He gets sent back to the States. And then, when some bad guys are threatening his family, well, then he uses all his skills to defeat the bad guys. So it was really Rambo with four legs and a tail. That was basically Max. And I got the idea for that because I got some puppies a number of years ago at the pound, and supposedly, they were German Shepherds. They were little, so it was hard to tell. So I got these two puppies, and months later, I discovered that they were not German shepherds, they were Belgian malinois. And so I did some research on Belgian malinois, and I found out that the army and the police are using these dogs because they’re the best dogs for that kind of work. So I was doing my research, and I saw that there were a couple of dog handlers that died in Afghanistan or Iraq. And then, their families asked, “Well, my son is dead, but can I have his dog? Can his dog be part of our family because that’s all we have left of him from his time in the military?” And so these families ended up adopting the dogs, and that was the basis for Max. Basically, this dog handler gets killed, his dog survives. And then, the family back in Texas wants to adopt the dog. And the dog ends up being their protector, coming to the rescue.

  Grégoire Canlorbe: Thank you for the opportunity to do this interview.

  Sheldon Lettich: You’re welcome. That’s funny, I was just exchanging text messages with Brian Thompson. And Brian is in The Order. And Brian is a real expert with swords. He was in the Conan Show at Universal Studios. So he used to work with swords all the time. He’s really good with them. And then, our stunt double for Jean-Claude in The Order was David Leitch. Well, David is also really good with weapons, so Brian and he worked out a great sword fight sequence. And David, by the way, has now gone on to be a director. He directed Deadpool 2. He did that one, I forgot the title of it, the one with Dwayne Johnson. He did this really huge movie with Dwayne Johnson [Fast & Furious Presents: Hobbs & Shaw]. And he was our double for Jean-Claude.

  So, we were supposed to have a sword fight at the end of The Order.But Jean-Claude, like I said, he’s not good with weapons. We tried doing a few things with him. He wasn’t comfortable with it. He’s comfortable with what he’s good at, with the kicks and the punches and all of that. So he said, “Guys, let’s not do this. I can’t do this scene.” And basically, Brian and David were going to do most of the scene with the swords. And we were just going to need some close ups of Jean-Claude just swinging a sword or something. And he just didn’t feel it was going to work. So we went away from that whole sequence. And it’s a bit disappointing because I thought we needed a really good sword fight at the end of The Order, but we ended up not getting it. It’s kind of a disappointing scene.

That interview was originally published in The Postil Magazine‘s March 2022 issue